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[Issue] Titans and Tracking.
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Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-02-05 01:26:53 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:


Titans are balanced as long as no more than 1-2 are on the field, its when you end up blobbing them that they are broken.


You can say exactly this about every ship in game. A blob of maelstroms does too much alpha! A blob of logistics ships tanks too much! A blob of drakes is too tough AND too long ranged!. A blob of falcons can jam my whole fleet!

I recently pitched an idea to my corp about how to beat a 40ish man Tornado blob which had recently beat our ass. The answer I came up with other than just NUMBERS was 20 armor tanked scorpions with guardians, damnations and hero-dictors. The plan being for everyone to pick 2 guys at random off the target list, jam them, and deal enough cruise-missile alpha to pop a tornado. I still believe that this would work.

Now, if we had ever tried that and won, would that mean ECM is overpowered ? Would that mean scorpions are over powered ? No. Of course not. It would mean that we brought something that would radically have changed the playing field beyond just gank and tank.

Almost all fleets that are currently Pvp standards are pretty damn terrible against a big number of titans. That's why people are using their titan fleets to incredible effect.

As it stands right now we can either chose between two evils:

1. BS Blobs that conquer all, including conquering all capitals.
2. Titans that conquer all.

The first one of these sucks for many many reasons. BS are cheap and essentially unlimited and only need mediocre skills. All that anyone needs to win is a comprehensive ship replacement policy and the stomach to win wars of attrition. Whoever can command the largest number of bodies will always win.

The second of these sucks, but less so. Titans cannot be whelped with no ill effects. They are limited and extremely labour intensive to build. They require extreme amount of SP. And even with all of that they need to be used with sanity and support from sub-capital fleets.

Titans are dangerous and powerful. They allow smaller groups to stand against 1000 man fleets and carry the day. But they are far more limited and far more precious.

I would rather see titans ripping everything apart than battleships because of the practical limitaions on them. They cannot be logged in all the time nor be in more than one place at once. They are not simply a question of man-power, they are a complex and difficult ship to use.

If you don't believe me, take a titan blob somewhere without sub-caps and carriers and see how long you last.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-02-05 17:58:38 UTC
Valea Silpha wrote:
If you don't believe me, take a titan blob somewhere without sub-caps and carriers and see how long you last.


/heh/

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#43 - 2012-02-06 06:51:57 UTC
Valea Silpha wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:


Titans are balanced as long as no more than 1-2 are on the field, its when you end up blobbing them that they are broken.


You can say exactly this about every ship in game. A blob of maelstroms does too much alpha! A blob of logistics ships tanks too much! A blob of drakes is too tough AND too long ranged!. A blob of falcons can jam my whole fleet!

I recently pitched an idea to my corp about how to beat a 40ish man Tornado blob which had recently beat our ass. The answer I came up with other than just NUMBERS was 20 armor tanked scorpions with guardians, damnations and hero-dictors. The plan being for everyone to pick 2 guys at random off the target list, jam them, and deal enough cruise-missile alpha to pop a tornado. I still believe that this would work.

Now, if we had ever tried that and won, would that mean ECM is overpowered ? Would that mean scorpions are over powered ? No. Of course not. It would mean that we brought something that would radically have changed the playing field beyond just gank and tank.

Almost all fleets that are currently Pvp standards are pretty damn terrible against a big number of titans. That's why people are using their titan fleets to incredible effect.

As it stands right now we can either chose between two evils:

1. BS Blobs that conquer all, including conquering all capitals.
2. Titans that conquer all.

The first one of these sucks for many many reasons. BS are cheap and essentially unlimited and only need mediocre skills. All that anyone needs to win is a comprehensive ship replacement policy and the stomach to win wars of attrition. Whoever can command the largest number of bodies will always win.

The second of these sucks, but less so. Titans cannot be whelped with no ill effects. They are limited and extremely labour intensive to build. They require extreme amount of SP. And even with all of that they need to be used with sanity and support from sub-capital fleets.

Titans are dangerous and powerful. They allow smaller groups to stand against 1000 man fleets and carry the day. But they are far more limited and far more precious.

I would rather see titans ripping everything apart than battleships because of the practical limitaions on them. They cannot be logged in all the time nor be in more than one place at once. They are not simply a question of man-power, they are a complex and difficult ship to use.

If you don't believe me, take a titan blob somewhere without sub-caps and carriers and see how long you last.


Sorry, you see slightly confused, as you just described the way they are actually supposed to work, not the way they really do.

BS blobs can be easily countered, usually by kiting or sigtanking. Neither tactic works against titans. NO tactic works against titans blobbed up, except more titans.

Titans and Superscarriers are fairly balanced alone, its simply that they were designed with the assumption no one would ever be able to build a blob of them.

CCP is no good at predicting their customer base What?

I honestly don't want titans nerfed, exactly, but rather limited so you can only field them in fleet support roles(my idea was to have their systems all locked, other than movement, unless they are giving FC bonuses to a certain critical mass of other pilots) because they work fine when you have 2-3 on the field. The problem is that with 20-30+, if you can't track that cruiser, your buddy 30km from you in the blob certainly can because you will ALWAYS be at 0 traversal to someone in a blob, and a titan gets to one shot you when that happens. BS fleets don't because you are not gonna be at 0 traversal against everyone.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#44 - 2012-02-06 18:27:42 UTC
Lavayar wrote:
I believe all caps should shoot caps and structures not rifters.


If that works the other way around as well, then you have a like.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-02-06 19:27:05 UTC
I am suddently missing the AoE Doomsdays again...I remember all the complaints about those back in the day and it hardly compares to this issue.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-02-07 04:04:45 UTC
Titans are supposed to do ridiculous damage to capital ships and stationary structures. They have the DD for this, so why do they need guns? Shouldn't be for self defence as that's what their sub-cap fleet is supposed to be for. We have Dreads for turret based damage but as it stands they are virtually never used.

Remove turrets from Titans, give Dreads a role again and then there is no problem.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2012-02-08 12:28:56 UTC
The underlying issue is really quite straightforward. Turret weapons have no form of 'cap' to their damage beyond base transversal. The minute you stack on all the tracking enhancements, target painters and webs that are avaialble, it becomes possible for a turret titan to kill basically anything. The fact that supercap fleets can currently shake off MWDing interdictors - the very ships designed to tackle them - shows just how fundamentally broken tracking is.

Missiles on the other hand have had a much smarter balancing cap from day 1. Oversized missiles simply cannot effectively damage undersized targets, regardless of other modifiers. A Drake will tank citadel torps from now until the next downtime because missiles are properly designed to maintain the rock/scissors/paper model of ship balance. The Leviathan is pretty much exactly what a 'balanced' titan should be - a high damage platform that is only able to damage other large targets.

No need to remove supercap weapons, no need to nerf their damage, no need to take away more HP.
All we need is a hard cap that stops oversized turrets damaging inappropriate targets and encourages diverse fleets.
Lord Drokoth
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#48 - 2012-02-12 16:08:02 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
The underlying issue is really quite straightforward. Turret weapons have no form of 'cap' to their damage beyond base transversal. The minute you stack on all the tracking enhancements, target painters and webs that are avaialble, it becomes possible for a turret titan to kill basically anything. The fact that supercap fleets can currently shake off MWDing interdictors - the very ships designed to tackle them - shows just how fundamentally broken tracking is.

Missiles on the other hand have had a much smarter balancing cap from day 1. Oversized missiles simply cannot effectively damage undersized targets, regardless of other modifiers. A Drake will tank citadel torps from now until the next downtime because missiles are properly designed to maintain the rock/scissors/paper model of ship balance. The Leviathan is pretty much exactly what a 'balanced' titan should be - a high damage platform that is only able to damage other large targets.

No need to remove supercap weapons, no need to nerf their damage, no need to take away more HP.
All we need is a hard cap that stops oversized turrets damaging inappropriate targets and encourages diverse fleets.


Could this issue not be solved by creating a specific weapon system for each class of titan that CAN do significant damage to large objects but do nearly no damage (or perhaps none at all) to sub capitals. something that does not take tracking into account in the fashion of turrets but instead in a way similar to missiles.
This could be a nice idea. although it would mean more work for the art department what it would do is even out the damage profiles of titans (making the levi not useless in combat) and also (if it was done in this way) would maybe have a skill based damage multiplier that cannot be modified by damage mods. But rather have its own unique damage (and maybe specific fuel/ammo type) than can be changed to select ranged ammo or shorter ranged ammo etc like other weapons.

Just an idea that the above post made me brainstorm on.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2012-02-13 16:34:21 UTC
Lord Drokoth wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
The underlying issue is really quite straightforward. Turret weapons have no form of 'cap' to their damage beyond base transversal. ...

No need to remove supercap weapons, no need to nerf their damage, no need to take away more HP.
All we need is a hard cap that stops oversized turrets damaging inappropriate targets and encourages diverse fleets.


Could this issue not be solved by creating a specific weapon system for each class of titan that CAN do significant damage to large objects but do nearly no damage (or perhaps none at all) to sub capitals. something that does not take tracking into account in the fashion of turrets but instead in a way similar to missiles.
This could be a nice idea. although it would mean more work for the art department what it would do is even out the damage profiles of titans (making the levi not useless in combat) and also (if it was done in this way) would maybe have a skill based damage multiplier that cannot be modified by damage mods. But rather have its own unique damage (and maybe specific fuel/ammo type) than can be changed to select ranged ammo or shorter ranged ammo etc like other weapons.

Just an idea that the above post made me brainstorm on.


They could do what they did with Fightbombers, and make XL turrets just a redressed 'missile'. Not sure how this would apply with turret support skills though.
Lord Drokoth
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#50 - 2012-02-13 19:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Drokoth
CynoNet Two wrote:
Lord Drokoth wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
The underlying issue is really quite straightforward. Turret weapons have no form of 'cap' to their damage beyond base transversal. ...

No need to remove supercap weapons, no need to nerf their damage, no need to take away more HP.
All we need is a hard cap that stops oversized turrets damaging inappropriate targets and encourages diverse fleets.


Could this issue not be solved by creating a specific weapon system for each class of titan that CAN do significant damage to large objects but do nearly no damage (or perhaps none at all) to sub capitals. something that does not take tracking into account in the fashion of turrets but instead in a way similar to missiles.
This could be a nice idea. although it would mean more work for the art department what it would do is even out the damage profiles of titans (making the levi not useless in combat) and also (if it was done in this way) would maybe have a skill based damage multiplier that cannot be modified by damage mods. But rather have its own unique damage (and maybe specific fuel/ammo type) than can be changed to select ranged ammo or shorter ranged ammo etc like other weapons.

Just an idea that the above post made me brainstorm on.


They could do what they did with Fightbombers, and make XL turrets just a redressed 'missile'. Not sure how this would apply with turret support skills though.


What they did with fighterbombers is actually the reverse of what im suggesting here. Dreadnought guns IMHO can stay as they are. but changed to only be fittable to dreadnoughts. (and battleships for those LOL times in abaddons w citadel torps)

What im thinking is something like this..
1) Weapon uses same physycal mechanic that missiles use...
2) Weapon has a graphic of its own (E.G the ragnarok could maybe fire a small group of missiles and the avatar some kind of laser weapon etc).
3) Weapon has its own required skill and a change to the titans turret bonus to the new weapon would affect its damage etc.
4) Weapon would require its own unique charges enabling the pilot to choose a short range danage ammo or a long range lower damage ammo, enabling the pilot versatility in damage selection etc.
5) Weapon would not be affected by damage mods. it would be its own type with its damage modified by the above propeties.

Thats sorta what im thinking might be an idea to solve it... titans wouldnt be able to OMGWTFBBQ subcaps as much as now because they totally ignore tracking entierly. but they would be able to deal damage against their true intended target types.

Also if this change is also paired with a change to supers to achieve a similar effect they also would need to have a support fleet this would possibly be a soloution to the supercap blob vs everything issue.
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#51 - 2012-02-13 20:11:42 UTC
Do what you want with Titans, just leave Dreads alone.

Dreads are disadvantaged against Titans in they are required to be in Siege Module to do any significant damage.

Being in siege:

Nerfs tracking by 50%
Can't move, jump, or warp for 5 minutes
Can't receive RR or other assistance for 5 minutes
Must rely on active tanking to stay alive, which scales horribly as numbers increase
Can only lock 2-3 targets
Has a 70-75% reduction to scan res which makes it so that it takes 40 seconds to lock a battleships, 2 minutes to lock a cruisers, frigates take an eternity.
Has trouble hitting orbiting capitals and supercapitals, supercapitals cannot be webbed or painted.
Very vulnerable to neuting
Can be one shot by Doomsdays

Penalizing XL guns will hurt Dreads even more.

Problem with Supercaps:

A great problem with the supercapitals is their Ewar immunity that does not require crippling penalties of not being able to receive RR or being stuck and committed to the fight like the capital ships are.

Another problem is that they have the EHP of pos towers combined with the ability to receive RR while retaining great firepower.

Solution:

Either make Titans unable to lock subcaps or

Make all supercapital ships vulnerable to ewar, in order to be invulnerable they must use a siege type modules that gives them immunity to ewar at the cost of not being able to receive any RR or remote assistance and also being unable to warp, jump, or move for 5-10 minutes.
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#52 - 2012-02-13 20:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolodymyr
Lord Drokoth wrote:
1) Weapon uses same physycal mechanic that missiles use...
2) Weapon has a graphic of its own (E.G the ragnarok could maybe fire a small group of missiles and the avatar some kind of laser weapon etc).

Well if they behave physically like missiles then the Avatar is going to have to shoot those Star Wars lasers that are 2 feet long and travel at 30mph.

Pink Marshmellow wrote:
Either make Titans unable to lock subcaps or

terrible idea

Pink Marshmellow wrote:
Make all supercapital ships vulnerable to ewar, in order to be invulnerable they must use a siege type modules that gives them immunity to ewar at the cost of not being able to receive any RR or remote assistance and also being unable to warp, jump, or move for 5-10 minutes.

better idea

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
Marchejita
NRDS What Else
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2012-02-16 09:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Marchejita
The main problem with titan and mother. Is the officier item's + Drug + implants

Perhaps the best way will be to remove the medium and low slot on titan.

Same hp on all titan same dps. Racial resistance

Raganarok and Erebus mix and shield and armor tanking resistance
Leviathan shield ( without shield regeneration)
Avatar Armor

Guns same then now but without the officer items, the tracking will be more worst then now.

For CCP it's easy because it's more easy to balance titan versus sub cap or cap without all low and medium item.
Katsumi Shimazu
Star F-ckers INC.
#54 - 2012-02-16 11:40:27 UTC
this again? really? titans should be able to hit subcaps! in particular the perma-microwarpdriving-drakes that are starting to appear. titans have been nerfed to hell already, enough is enough.

please stop brining this subject up! its getting very old.....
Sakurako Kimino
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-02-16 11:51:07 UTC
Marchejita wrote:
The main problem with titan and mother. Is the officier item's + Drug + implants

Perhaps the best way will be to remove the medium and low slot on titan.

Same hp on all titan same dps. Racial resistance

Raganarok and Erebus mix and shield and armor tanking resistance
Leviathan shield ( without shield regeneration)
Avatar Armor

Guns same then now but without the officer items, the tracking will be more worst then now.

For CCP it's easy because it's more easy to balance titan versus sub cap or cap without all low and medium item.



wow that this is the most stupid idea i have read ever.

i wonder how many of the whining cry babys here know how the titans are even set up.

what the next whine nerf the mael with its alpha damage is to powerfull my logistic ship can't save an other battleship it can insta pop cruisers

eve is about sin

James1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#56 - 2012-02-16 14:23:50 UTC
The fix is pretty easy impo:

Remove gun/ship signature radius from the hit chance formula and scale overall damage done by the ratio of (ship sig / gun sig)

Wallah even if the titan gets a perfect hit on your 90sig scimitar its only going to do around 9/100 of the titans max damage to it.

....
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#57 - 2012-02-16 17:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Asuka Solo wrote:
I agree, Titans and super carriers should not be able to fire on sub capital ships.

In the same breath, sub capital weapons should have no effect on Titans or super carriers.

Boost caps!


This is actually mostly a logical solution. drastically boost super cap tanks so sub caps have trouble denting them, and offset it with drastically increased super cap damage, with the added nerf that they can not hit, maybe even not target subcap ships.

there are a few major flaws in this line of thinking though. regardless of whether it is as simple as just playing with targeting/tracking mechanics.


  • super carriers use fighters for DPS that can hit sub caps. making a frigate size fighter drone unable to hit subcaps makes no sense.

  • if a super cap is used for a POS bash against a corp without super cap support they could not defend themselves.

  • super caps could no longer be used for ratting. many pilots would not like this.

    [*]It would really complicate the mechanics of super caps needing support fleets.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#58 - 2012-02-16 17:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
I agree with pink

Supers should be anti-capital platforms/anti-super platforms.

Remove their ability to target sub caps, but in the same breath make them immune to sub caps and sub cap ewar/bubbles.

Boost cap hulls and abilities to compensate.

I will repeat this until it sinks in!

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#59 - 2012-02-16 17:51:18 UTC
james1122 wrote:
The fix is pretty easy impo:

Remove gun/ship signature radius from the hit chance formula and scale overall damage done by the ratio of (ship sig / gun sig)

Wallah even if the titan gets a perfect hit on your 90sig scimitar its only going to do around 9/100 of the titans max damage to it.


that could work, it would force supers to rely on support fleets to defend against sub caps.

A sub cap blob could take down a Titan but the titan could not effectively hit back?

Again supers could no longer be used for ratting. The only use for them when not at war. A big deal considering the pilot can not dock to change ships.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#60 - 2012-02-16 17:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
I agree, Titans and super carriers should not be able to fire on sub capital ships.

In the same breath, sub capital weapons should have no effect on Titans or super carriers.

Boost caps!


This is actually mostly a logical solution. drastically boost super cap tanks so sub caps have trouble denting them, and offset it with drastically increased super cap damage, with the added nerf that they can not hit, maybe even not target subcap ships.

there are a few major flaws in this line of thinking though. regardless of whether it is as simple as just playing with targeting/tracking mechanics.


  • super carriers use fighters for DPS that can hit sub caps. making a frigate size fighter drone unable to hit subcaps makes no sense.

  • if a super cap is used for a POS bash against a corp without super cap support they could not defend themselves.

  • super caps could no longer be used for ratting. many pilots would not like this.

    • It would really complicate the mechanics of super caps needing support fleets.


Very much so.

But I can't see why this would be a problem for life. Non sentry drones cannot engage towers, due to a shield. Be that as it may, the principle remains. There are certain ingame items that cannot be used against other ingame items.

I see no reason why CCP cannot create some creative reason for a simple logical restriction on fighter bombers, preventing them from attacking sub capitals, while at the same time allowing fighters to engage sub caps. There are even some NPC structures that cannot be engaged by certain drones. So I'm convinced this can easily be applied to sub caps from the super carrier fighter bomber perspective.

Titans should be easy enough. If ship class <= Battleship, then you fail to target ship hull like you fail @ targeting a cyno.

The same should apply to sub caps. If ship hull >= super carrier, you fail to target the hull due to its size and or unique/godlike sensor qualities.




Super Carriers are still carriers and those drones are not invincible. They die pretty quickly. And we all know a Super Carrier without teeth or support is a killmail looking for a timestamp. Small corp or not, you damm sure better have enough firepower and or support when committing a super to take out flies. (at least, with the current game mechanics of sub caps online)


I am sadly, at a loss when it comes to supers no longer being used for ratting because of a failure to target sup caps. But you know what..... If it means keeping their "super" status and bringing balance to the FORCE.... then I'll try my level best not to loose sleep over that facet.

As for supper cap support fleets..... In my mind, capitals need sub capital support.

Supers need capital support. If we take this approach and boost capitals sufficiently, then caps will be the new linchpin for fleet fights. Blobbing capitals will fail since sub caps will swallow them whole. Blobbing supers will fail since sub caps will be immune to their awesomeness. Blobbing sub caps vs supers will fail since they wont be able to do anything to the mosters no matter how many they have. Victory will only be had by the side that can successfully keep their capitals alive long enough to clear the field of sub caps and enemy caps, thus making the supers vulnerable.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!