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Community HATES thought of FtP but their actions push CCP that way

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#141 - 2012-02-16 05:12:09 UTC
Vizvayu Koga wrote:
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:

EVE is a sandbox by nature, which means the players make the "content" for the most part. If EVE turned into happy fun carebear theme park it would be an extremely boring game. Its the unpredictable sandbox that makes EVE appealing.

I played another mmo that will not be named for 6 years, and it was the same old thing every week, show up for raid at the designated time, kill the same scripted dragons you killed last week, the only "progress" you see is either a new piece of gear or another boss kill on some epeen waving site.

With EVE you really never know exactly what you are doing from one day to the next (unless you do nothing but PvE), one night you could end up in a 1000+ person fleet battle, the next night it could be quiet giving you some time to make isk.


I see the sandbox and freedom topics are very common on this kind of thread, and I agree with this up to some extent, but EVE is not truly a sandbox, not 100% at least. We have imposed rules and game mechanics that, sometimes obviously, other times more subtly, lead players to certain goals and also define "better" ways to reach those goals. This means that many times, the way players react (in game, in forums or in comms) is conditioned by CCP's rules, even if they (players) think is just their internal nature (or human nature) to react like that and do the things they do, the way they do.


Sand boxes have walls (rules), but what you do in between is entirely up to you.

Eve is a sandbox.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#142 - 2012-02-16 06:04:54 UTC
What is a sandbox if not a box with sand in it. The box defines certain boundaries, but what you do within those boundaries is up to your own imagination.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#143 - 2012-02-16 06:17:36 UTC
A sand castle is still made of sand. Is the fact that everything in a sandbox is made of sand a damning sign that the sandbox provider is shaping your behavior?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Valei Khurelem
#144 - 2012-02-16 07:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:
That statement just shows how dumb you are. In reality, it is actually smart to pay $$ for ISK if you have a well paid job and don't like PvE or trading. I don't expect you to understand why for obvious reasons. I also don't expect you to understand the difference between the current PLEX system and MT/F2P. I guess if EvE ever goes F2P it is just players like you that will be around.


You have no idea about supply and demand do you? Every time people buy PLEX or use PLEX to get Aurum gets it into CCPs heads, any time a F2P game is successful developers think they can get away with making it happen, any time devs release DLCs for a game for atrocious prices and some moron buys it then that shows up as a statistic saying "Good job! Your plan is working!" .

Quit calling me dumb when you don't even have a basic grasp of how economics works, you are encouraging a culture of pay to win in the games industry and you don't even realise it. What's going to happen next if the devs get their way? They're going to turn into Peter Molyneux and make us pay for single player games in episodes or my personal favourite paying for blood in Shogun 2 Total War? Over my dead body, I'm not paying money however cheap it is to have textures put into a game that I could mod myself, most of these DLCs add barely anything to the game content to begin with.

Quote:

Basically: while 39k seems like its "really low"... its actually not.


There were 50k - 60k players online if I remember correctly when everyone thought this game was awesome, this is not worth arguing over, being a large games company and being satisfied with only 39k people playing your game just seems to scream to me you're lacking confidence in what you're doing, almost as if you're amazed it hasn't dropped even further with the recent changes you're planning.

This is from PC Gamer, so take it with a grain of salt, but here you go - http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/02/eve-online-has-over-360000-players-63170-simultaneous-users-in-january/

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#145 - 2012-02-16 07:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Valei Khurelem wrote:

This is from PC Gamer, so take it with a grain of salt, but here you go - http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/02/eve-online-has-over-360000-players-63170-simultaneous-users-in-january/


January peak concurrent users was 50356 at 2012-01-29 18:59:00.

-Liang

Ed: Max PCU recorded by Eve-Offline was 55722 at 2011-01-23 17:02:00

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Valei Khurelem
#146 - 2012-02-16 07:57:15 UTC
and that makes it more worrying for me, because what happened to all the players? Did the server hamster get hiccups over the month? There aren't many holidays or reasons for people not to be playing in February for crying out loud.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#147 - 2012-02-16 08:28:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Valei Khurelem wrote:
and that makes it more worrying for me, because what happened to all the players? Did the server hamster get hiccups over the month? There aren't many holidays or reasons for people not to be playing in February for crying out loud.


Feb PCU (so far) is 51748 at 2012-02-12 18:42:00. The players are here. Are you talking about the players online *RIGHT NOW* in the middle of AUS TZ? In that case, all the players went to bed. ;-)

-Liang

Ed: FYI, the AUS TZ playerbase is actually more active than they've ever been.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#148 - 2012-02-16 08:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Liang Nuren wrote:
Are you talking about the players online *RIGHT NOW* in the middle of AUS TZ? In that case, all the players went to bed. ;-)


Except the Aussies like me who just got home from work :)

edit; Wow! Just saw my first suicide bank in hisec!

edit: no, belay that, it looks like it was just someone ganking a war target. =(

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Fraa Bjorn
Cell 317
#149 - 2012-02-16 09:03:02 UTC
Just a quick note that you can't use number of servers/realms in other games to extrapolate from. You do need insider information.
The population allowed in a realm is not primarily dictated by how much the "server" (cluster really) can handle, but by GAMEPLAY - cram as many people as possible into a server, but not beyond the point where it threatens overpopulation.
Overpopulation is very dependent on the game mechanics in that specific MMO, for example, quest layout, zoning, instancing, ranged or melee combat, etc, all affect how many players you should (note: not *can*) place in a world.
Also, one cannot just look at US and ignore EU when and if these extrapolations are done. There is a very wide overlap of EU and US players with global peak at about 1900CET - this is why we europeans schedule maintenance at work hours and californians have to be up at 3am for the same work.
Now, the really interesting question is what is the churn of the subscriberbase in the different MMOs, i.e. per 100k subscribers, how many of those did you have to acquire each and every month to maintain that level of subs? Does your marketing and PR spend eat up all profits? What point is there to maintain high subs if you're not profitable?

As for Eve, it's not a big game in any way shape or form. But it *is* big enough to have critical mass of players and I have fun in it every single day. That's what counts!

All games have QQ, but only Eve has Q.Q
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#150 - 2012-02-16 09:10:20 UTC
Fraa Bjorn wrote:
Just a quick note that you can't use number of servers/realms in other games to extrapolate from. You do need insider information.
The population allowed in a realm is not primarily dictated by how much the "server" (cluster really) can handle, but by GAMEPLAY - cram as many people as possible into a server, but not beyond the point where it threatens overpopulation.
Overpopulation is very dependent on the game mechanics in that specific MMO, for example, quest layout, zoning, instancing, ranged or melee combat, etc, all affect how many players you should (note: not *can*) place in a world.


From what I've seen in other MMOs the much stronger danger is underpopulation. Overpopulation is easily dealt with through instancing PVE and PVP content... but not having enough players to power even a single instance is simply a death knell.

Quote:

Also, one cannot just look at US and ignore EU when and if these extrapolations are done. There is a very wide overlap of EU and US players with global peak at about 1900CET - this is why we europeans schedule maintenance at work hours and californians have to be up at 3am for the same work.
Now, the really interesting question is what is the churn of the subscriberbase in the different MMOs, i.e. per 100k subscribers, how many of those did you have to acquire each and every month to maintain that level of subs? Does your marketing and PR spend eat up all profits? What point is there to maintain high subs if you're not profitable?

As for Eve, it's not a big game in any way shape or form. But it *is* big enough to have critical mass of players and I have fun in it every single day. That's what counts!


We didn't forget timezones. In fact, there was an entire article on the subject. You should read it! :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#151 - 2012-02-16 10:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Azala
Hunng Ibruin wrote:
I could go on but you know what I have stated isn't just hyperbole, it is by and large reality. This community is incredibly self-destructive and loathsome. If it isn't in your hands it deserves to be blown up/stolen/griefed/etc. until the person who has it gives up. War decks, can flipping, suicide, gatecamps, theft are all tools to accomplish this goal. In the end you post for the "tears" and could care less how the other person feels or if they leave the game; in-fact most of you will cheer even louder if you cause someone to quit the game.



I don't think it's as bad as you think it is, although if your only means of judging is the forums then I can see how you think it might be.


Two main problems as I see it;

1)
You have different playstyles trying to co-exist where a lot of other MMOs split those up to make the gaming experience more acceptable for more people. Personally I prefer the way EVE does it, even though it can lead to problems.

2)
The fact you can use isk to fund your gaming, which means people have a financial interest in how they generate their isk ingame. In some ways I see that as a bad thing because to a degree it's taking the game out of EVE. Think about that last comment, what I mean by that. However I realise some people would not play if they could not finance their gaming through isk or at least use less accounts. I'm not saying get rid of the ability to pay via isk for gaming time, just pointing out that it can effect the way someone plays the game as they have an actual financial interest in how they play the game.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#152 - 2012-02-16 10:53:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Ranger 1 wrote:
Obviously these folks have a point.

Why play EVE when you can play a much nicer game where you only murder, assasinate, rob, gank, elimanate NPC's... cause that makes such activities a much friendlier experience.

Or if your bloodlust demands that you victimize another player, that poor fellow should immediately respawn with all of their equipment intact. Only in this way can you have a proper game that is fair to everyone regardless of their personal skills.

That way everyone is a winner, every single player is the best there is... at everything.

What a wonderful game that would be. Smile


Hmm I play another PvP game with an ELO rating system to see what team plays better.

You can't get that by killing NPCs, they are just stupid and dumb.

Real opponents, instead... they give a taste to the game.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#153 - 2012-02-16 11:29:44 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:
[quote=Micheal Dietrich]

That said, you guys are all a little new? The game is 8 years old, nothing has changed. Bad behaviour has always been rewarded in EVE 500% more than honor or integrity. CCp have managed for 8 years without ever implementing a mechanic (not an employee) that allows the game to thrive in civility. The Null Bears and pew Bears have full backing by CCP.

The rest of EVE are seen as usefull idiots.

This is EVE. Adapt or GTFO.


EvE is wider than that, please don't constrain it into your personal vision.

Even having honor and integrity pays off, it's just less "natural" to certain players with the "if I can do it, I WILL do it".

I won't mention the Veldspar Overlord as example of the rewards you can get with honor and integrity.

There are many others infact, from Grendell (he secures 350B+ of stuff at a time), TornSoul, RAW23 (trusted with 150B bonds within 1 year and made more than that). Even myself I made a 100B NAV exclusively with trust based activities (auditing, collateral holding, insurance, market analysis...).

EvE is vast, EvE is good and everyone has a chance. Wish Real Life was as nice and fair as EvE is.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Sade Onyx
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2012-02-16 11:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Sade Onyx
Personally I think the entire conversation is moot.

On average, since release Eve, has seen a steady INCREASE year on year.

No other MMO has ever done this. So Eve is not a product which follows the normal patterns of its competitors even verses other sandbox mmo's

No sandbox of Eve's age has ever performed the way it does, so its currently in completely unknown territory. Therefore no actual basis of evidence or fact exists that can be used to accurately make any statement of truth about its past, present or future.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#155 - 2012-02-16 11:46:23 UTC
Switching to "free" to play won't help Eve increase the size of its player base because I and a lot of other players will quit in disgust.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Arafelis Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#156 - 2012-02-16 12:07:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Arafelis Keikira
Mara Rinn wrote:
A sand castle is still made of sand. Is the fact that everything in a sandbox is made of sand a damning sign that the sandbox provider is shaping your behavior?


Well, yes, actually; especially if you aren't at least preconsciously aware of how your behavior is being affected. Sand is formed of discrete grains, although it has the appearance of flow; it is gritty, it has a particular taste, behaves one way when wet and another when dry... and so on. The problem isn't that it is affecting your (generic) behavior; the problem is that people get so accustomed to it, they forget their behavior is being affected, and cannot even properly conceive of a box of clay, or a box of wax, or a box of Legos.

And I'm just going to leave this here now.

Vizvayu Koga wrote:
We have imposed rules and game mechanics that, sometimes obviously, other times more subtly, lead players to certain goals and also define "better" ways to reach those goals. This means that many times, the way players react (in game, in forums or in comms) is conditioned by CCP's rules, even if they (players) think is just their internal nature (or human nature) to react like that and do the things they do, the way they do.



...
Rodj Blake wrote:
Switching to "free" to play won't help Eve increase the size of its player base because I and a lot of other players will quit in disgust.


If a PLEX is 500 mil isk, and tritanium is worth 4 isk per unit, one PLEX is worth about 42 million units of Veldspar. Hmm... how long does that take to mine?
Lexmana
#157 - 2012-02-16 12:29:23 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Switching to "free" to play won't help Eve increase the size of its player base because I and a lot of other players will quit in disgust.


This ^^ and if EVE ever goes FTP it better bring in an extra couple million players or CCP will have to lay off more of its staff.
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#158 - 2012-02-16 12:47:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Azala
Lexmana wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Switching to "free" to play won't help Eve increase the size of its player base because I and a lot of other players will quit in disgust.


This ^^ and if EVE ever goes FTP it better bring in an extra couple million players or CCP will have to lay off more of its staff.



Don't think there's any danger at the moment of EVE going free to play.

Companies normally go partially (with restrictions) free to play if the population drops so low that they're in danger of losing the remaining subscribed gamers.

Imo free to play ruins games anyway, but then it's usually used on dying games so those companies don't have much to lose in trying.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#159 - 2012-02-16 12:59:38 UTC
Whereas the F2P model has proven to work, I really don't see it as the best solution for everyone.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Sasha Azala
Doomheim
#160 - 2012-02-16 13:03:54 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Whereas the F2P model has proven to work, I really don't see it as the best solution for everyone.





Depends if you're talking about F2P as completely free except for a shop, or just free of subs which is not actually F2P as you still have to purchase the game and the expansions, plus putting up with a shop.