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Hr Mesetas for CSM - EVE needs a Stockmarket!
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Hr Mesetas
Domain Trade Corp
#41 - 2012-02-14 23:27:17 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Akhillez wrote:
Well for one, obviously you wouldn't be able to steal much money without a good track record, so if you stole a little it wouldn't be much different the losing the bet on penny stocks in rl stock market, let idiots gamble their iskies away I say.


Max Abramoff had a great track record.

In any case, Eve barely has a commodities market. Complex financial instruments and markets can really only exist in societies with sophisticated laws and intelligent enforcement thereof, neither of which exists in New Eden, nor should such things exist in this game. I doubt most corporations even distribute their shares.

At this moment corps and investors should think about the risk involved in sharetrading. Even if EVE gets a stockmarket, there will always be a risk.
Ntrails
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2012-02-15 00:26:54 UTC
I feel this man needs some more support for his inescapably interesting perspectives
Di Mulle
#43 - 2012-02-15 09:52:25 UTC
Hr Mesetas wrote:
[As it is now, your right - shares are more or less useless. They are ineffective because there are there without a reason. Shares in the real world work because they have value. Yes, in EVE you can use shares the determine votes, but without payouts, they are of no value to investors. Thats why if shares where on the market and corp history and economics were avalible to the public then : bad corp = bad shares value and vice versa.


I see you are firmly convinced that the wind blows because of swaying trees Big smile
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Hr Mesetas
Domain Trade Corp
#44 - 2012-02-15 16:47:36 UTC
Di Mulle wrote:
Hr Mesetas wrote:
[As it is now, your right - shares are more or less useless. They are ineffective because there are there without a reason. Shares in the real world work because they have value. Yes, in EVE you can use shares the determine votes, but without payouts, they are of no value to investors. Thats why if shares where on the market and corp history and economics were avalible to the public then : bad corp = bad shares value and vice versa.


I see you are firmly convinced that the wind blows because of swaying trees Big smile

Yes i am - it must be the wind! At first i thought it was squirels, but they are way to small to make trees sway - branches yes, but not entire trees Big smile
Hr Mesetas
Domain Trade Corp
#45 - 2012-02-15 16:51:22 UTC
Ntrails wrote:
I feel this man needs some more support for his inescapably interesting perspectives

It seems like almost everybody is focused on the fact that it cant be done as it is now. That´s why i want to have added these features to EVE.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2012-02-15 18:02:37 UTC
Don't listen to the lotus eaters! I calculate that you will excel at your campaign!
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-02-15 20:38:43 UTC
Mu'ad Diib
Nul-Bridge Industrial Technologies
#48 - 2012-02-16 03:13:38 UTC
At the moment There's several candidates in the pool that have less than the 100 likes.

Here's an idea.

To encourage a wide and representative shortlist and help ourselves a little into the bargain, why don't we like each other publicly with a post in each other's election post thread, and encourage others via our own posts to like the members of the sub-100 group.

This way we might all make the shortlist.

Let me know what you think about this.

Mu'ad Diib
.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. When I die, all those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Hr Mesetas
Domain Trade Corp
#49 - 2012-02-16 04:40:08 UTC
Mu'ad Diib wrote:
At the moment There's several candidates in the pool that have less than the 100 likes.

Here's an idea.

To encourage a wide and representative shortlist and help ourselves a little into the bargain, why don't we like each other publicly with a post in each other's election post thread, and encourage others via our own posts to like the members of the sub-100 group.

This way we might all make the shortlist.

Let me know what you think about this.

Mu'ad Diib
.

You got a thumbs up from me Smile
Banksae
Bedlam Escapees
Apocalypse Now.
#50 - 2012-02-16 05:01:32 UTC
First off, love the coat!

Second, if your significant other is sick at home, please stay home, idiot ! :P

And last but not least, your views about the stocks are refreshing. I'd like to see you achieve this. Stocks should hold more power even when just holding shares you should be able to make a vote for that corp. Having it so that the blackmarket for stocks become more of a tool to overthrow a CEO and the direction of a certain corp. By this war, wars can be won without a single fight.

Then again you also speak corp security. Given out 49 shares out of a 1000 is only a 4,9% where a 5% is a potential but small risk. then again, it can be a tool. What is your view ?
ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-02-16 06:04:19 UTC
Hr Mesetas wrote:
My main interrest is trade, and that´s why im running for CSM. I believe EVE could be even better if more features were added to the trade and market aspect of the game.

Stockmarket (my main interest)
- This could open up a whole new dimension of trading in EVE !
- As is, trading corp shares is based on trust because there is ZERO guarantee that a scammer wont run of with the ISK you invested.
- CORP SECURITY is a major factor. I´ve talked to alot of CEO´s searching for corps to invest in, but everybody are afraid of corp-takeovers. With a multi member corp 5% is enough to vote out the CEO (as far as i know) Only single person-corps are are safe because non corp members cant replace a corp member CEO.
- "Corp History" is an essential part to make this work. The public/potentional investors need to be able to see corp info like : Payout-details, corporate strategy, corp-age, # of corp members and shareholders etc to be able to evaluate the corp shares.
- Of course there need to be a stock market equal to the regular market where you can buy or sell shares.


But you see, here is the problem. You mistakenly believe that the "shares" in an eve corporation somehow represent the value of that corporation. They don't - they're utterly worthless ( unless you are somehow ignoring reality and Role Playing that they do ) which is why nobody trades them.

The only thing that represents the value of a corporation is the Wallet Balance and the Corp Hangar Contents. And the only people who can access that value are the directors of a corporation.

Your idea of a stock market in Eve makes no sense.

The same principle is true of Banks in Eve. Anyone claiming to run a bank can ALWAYS make more money by stealing other players investments rather than wasting time investing it. There is NO SECURITY. There NEVER will be. CCP do not enforce player actions. The game is designed to allow us to violence each other.
ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-02-16 06:06:14 UTC
Ah Bugrit, maybe I should just troll him instead
Di Mulle
#53 - 2012-02-16 12:51:31 UTC
Hr Mesetas wrote:


I see you are firmly convinced that the wind blows because of swaying trees Big smile

Yes i am - it must be the wind! At first i thought it was squirels, but they are way to small to make trees sway - branches yes, but not entire trees Big smile[/quote]

That explains a lot.
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Hr Mesetas
Domain Trade Corp
#54 - 2012-02-16 15:26:48 UTC
Banksae wrote:
First off, love the coat!

Second, if your significant other is sick at home, please stay home, idiot ! :P

And last but not least, your views about the stocks are refreshing. I'd like to see you achieve this. Stocks should hold more power even when just holding shares you should be able to make a vote for that corp. Having it so that the blackmarket for stocks become more of a tool to overthrow a CEO and the direction of a certain corp. By this war, wars can be won without a single fight.

Then again you also speak corp security. Given out 49 shares out of a 1000 is only a 4,9% where a 5% is a potential but small risk. then again, it can be a tool. What is your view ?


Your coat looks sharp as well - do we use the same tailor? :-)
Why is everybody misreading what i wrote about choosing between a meeting and stay home and take care of my sig. oth. ? Obvoiusly i should just have kept it simple (lesson learned)

Anyways - moving on to the real subject. I totally agree that shares could be used as a powerful tool as you describe it, and i really like the idea! I see shares as a platform to expand trading possibilities and invest in other corps, but using them as "means of war" is something that i see great potential in as well. However, from a trader/investor point of view, the 5% threshold you mention, needs to be raised. 4,9% of a 1000 = 49 shares in total a corp can put on sale to be on the safe side. That means as an investor you will (if you buy all 49 shares) recieve 4,9% of a, lets say, a 4-8% corp-profit depending on corp economics ofcourse. That way neither corps or investors benefits from that because the amounts are to small.
Regarding shareholders making votes, I think that even if a shareholder only owns 1 share he should be able to make votes.
Hr Mesetas
Domain Trade Corp
#55 - 2012-02-16 15:37:20 UTC
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:
Hr Mesetas wrote:
My main interrest is trade, and that´s why im running for CSM. I believe EVE could be even better if more features were added to the trade and market aspect of the game.

Stockmarket (my main interest)
- This could open up a whole new dimension of trading in EVE !
- As is, trading corp shares is based on trust because there is ZERO guarantee that a scammer wont run of with the ISK you invested.
- CORP SECURITY is a major factor. I´ve talked to alot of CEO´s searching for corps to invest in, but everybody are afraid of corp-takeovers. With a multi member corp 5% is enough to vote out the CEO (as far as i know) Only single person-corps are are safe because non corp members cant replace a corp member CEO.
- "Corp History" is an essential part to make this work. The public/potentional investors need to be able to see corp info like : Payout-details, corporate strategy, corp-age, # of corp members and shareholders etc to be able to evaluate the corp shares.
- Of course there need to be a stock market equal to the regular market where you can buy or sell shares.


But you see, here is the problem. You mistakenly believe that the "shares" in an eve corporation somehow represent the value of that corporation. They don't - they're utterly worthless ( unless you are somehow ignoring reality and Role Playing that they do ) which is why nobody trades them.

The only thing that represents the value of a corporation is the Wallet Balance and the Corp Hangar Contents. And the only people who can access that value are the directors of a corporation.

Your idea of a stock market in Eve makes no sense.

The same principle is true of Banks in Eve. Anyone claiming to run a bank can ALWAYS make more money by stealing other players investments rather than wasting time investing it. There is NO SECURITY. There NEVER will be. CCP do not enforce player actions. The game is designed to allow us to violence each other.



You´re right there´s a problem, and that´s the whole point.

I don´t "mistakenly believe that the "shares" in an eve corporation somehow represent the value of that corporation". I know for a fact, as it has been up untill now, that shares represent zero value what so ever, and they will never have value or represent anything (except voting) as long as there is no stockmarket in EVE.

Thats why EVE needs a stockmarket.
Ventro69
61 Mech.
#56 - 2012-02-16 15:46:43 UTC
How can you prevent Goons from manupulating the trade goods we're investing in?

I am assuming the "stock" will be trade goods.

If I invest heavily in say, ice products and that oily anorexic orders his "swarm" to gank ice miners again, just to capatalise on their stockpile. How will you keep my money safe?

Ventro69: There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
Hr Mesetas
Domain Trade Corp
#57 - 2012-02-16 16:01:40 UTC
Ventro69 wrote:
How can you prevent Goons from manupulating the trade goods we're investing in?

I am assuming the "stock" will be trade goods.

If I invest heavily in say, ice products and that oily anorexic orders his "swarm" to gank ice miners again, just to capatalise on their stockpile. How will you keep my money safe?


By a stockmarket i mean a corpshare-market.

Its very difficult to prevent a major corp with huge funds to manipulate the market unless you have more isk than they do. So i my advise would be to stay strong and together with as many as possible to prevent being overrun.

Fly safe.
Ntrails
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2012-02-16 16:11:00 UTC
someone needs to set up a clearing house in order to allow derivatives trading in commodities.
Hr Mesetas
Domain Trade Corp
#59 - 2012-02-16 16:48:12 UTC
Ntrails wrote:
someone needs to set up a clearing house in order to allow derivatives trading in commodities.


Im not a fan deriviates. If we´re gonna have even the slightest chance of a stockmarket in EVE, it has to be kept simple.
Ventro69
61 Mech.
#60 - 2012-02-17 07:29:50 UTC
Hr Mesetas wrote:
Ventro69 wrote:
How can you prevent Goons from manupulating the trade goods we're investing in?

I am assuming the "stock" will be trade goods.

If I invest heavily in say, ice products and that oily anorexic orders his "swarm" to gank ice miners again, just to capatalise on their stockpile. How will you keep my money safe?


By a stockmarket i mean a corpshare-market.

Its very difficult to prevent a major corp with huge funds to manipulate the market unless you have more isk than they do. So i my advise would be to stay strong and together with as many as possible to prevent being overrun.

Fly safe.


That is nothing different than any other "bank" in Eve's history and it ALWAYS ends in tears. Good luck, but there is no way I can vote for you based on this.

Ventro69: There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.