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Battling the Blob...
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Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#1 - 2012-02-15 21:22:17 UTC
Okay, CCP, let's talk turkey.

It's time to confront the Blob.

No, not that Blob. Do I look like Steve McQueen?

I'm talking about the ever-present 'blob' tactic that has plagued capsuleers since EvE launched seven years ago. You know, the one where you're flying around, minding your own business, and suddenly BAM! Without warning, you're either floating home or waking up in a new clone.

Various methods have been suggested to prevent 'the blob', and there are counter-points for each of them. I'm not here to argue about them. I'm here to talk about the issues with blobs, and what the blob means to the average player.

Basically, the blob is really a self-reinforcing problem -- a vicious cycle, if you will, where the only possible response to a blob is to form a blob of your own (which inevitably causes others to see you as part of the...er...blob-rem).

Okay, that was really lame. I apologize.

Anyway....

I'm not suggesting removing the capability to blob -- it's a viable tactic, and it's permitted by the few related rules that have been established. EvE, on the other hand, is in danger of (and some would say it's already become) World of Blobcraft. There are simply no effective methods of dealing with a blob. Take a few frigates out against them, and the blob webs you, scrams yuou and smashes you to pieces; form a counter-blob and you're faced with an unjustified reputation as 'one of those corps'.

So, here's my Idea, which I put forth for Discussion:

Find some way to make blobbing less attractive as a tactic. I'm not saying remove the blob, mind you -- as I said, it's a perfectly viable maneuver -- but give us the ability to compete against the blob without requiring that we become a blob ourselves.

I mean, I personally have no problem with my ship being blown up -- if I die against the blob, I die against the blob, but I'd rather go down fighting and show them that I can die with honor and courage.

In other words:

Quote:

If it's our time to die, it's our time. All I ask is, if we have to give these bas***ds our lives... WE GIVE 'EM HELL BEFORE WE DO!

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#2 - 2012-02-15 21:49:53 UTC
Wait, so this proposal is just "find a way to do this"? That's a little easier said than done, although CCP could certainly start by creating less incentives to blob. At the moment more DPS is the primary solution to pretty much every problem you might face, and structure shoots... well, yeah, structure shoots.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2012-02-15 23:13:39 UTC
Join Faction Warfare for 6 months. You'll find ways of getting around the "blob" and occasionally smashing it (hint: speed and kiting).

How did you Veterans start?
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#4 - 2012-02-15 23:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
ShahFluffers wrote:
Join Faction Warfare for 6 months. You'll find ways of getting around the "blob" and occasionally smashing it (hint: speed and kiting).


I've been in faction warfare for about four months; the blob negates the speed and kiting advantage, because they usually have dozens of ships, most of which have some kind of scram or webber fitted. Weapons aren't very useful, either, because the most common blob formation is one that frigates and smaller ships don't have a prayer against one-on-one.

I'm just trying to say that CCP really needs to do something to disincentivize blobbing, before being in a blob becomes the only way someone can be convinced to undock.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2012-02-16 00:23:19 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Join Faction Warfare for 6 months. You'll find ways of getting around the "blob" and occasionally smashing it (hint: speed and kiting).


I've been in faction warfare for about four months; the blob negates the speed and kiting advantage, because they usually have dozens of ships, most of which have some kind of scram or webber fitted. Weapons aren't very useful, either, because the most common blob formation is one that frigates and smaller ships don't have a prayer against one-on-one.

I'm just trying to say that CCP really needs to do something to disincentivize blobbing, before being in a blob becomes the only way someone can be convinced to undock.


*sigh*

The "Nano-Tard" Tactic.
- Fit up a Vagabond or a Cynabal (remember to equip a medium neut).
- Find a 'blob.'
- When the blob comes at you burn away... but no farther away than 120km (so the 'blob' cannot unexpectedly warp on top of you).
- Frigates should be the only ones that can keep up with you, so...
- Target the closest one, neut it, and kill it using your autocannons and/or drones. Rinse and repeat.
- Once the frigates have been dealt with, turn around and begin going after the loners that have separated from the rest of the group (there is always one).
- Overload your weapons and gank each loner before the rest of the group can come to his/her aid.

How did you Veterans start?
Im Super Gay
Investtan Inc.
The Republic.
#6 - 2012-02-16 00:34:32 UTC
Make all ships emit a small amount of interference that affects targeting range, scan Res, tracking, etc. Larger ships emit more interference over a larger radius where smaller ships emit less interference over a smaller radius. A few ships grouped together should be able to function normally with the small bits of interference from the other ships, but once you start getting many ships grouped together tightly, the collective interference from all the ships will render all of the ships within a certain range useless.

Bam, large blobs now nerf themselves.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#7 - 2012-02-16 00:50:13 UTC
Im Super Gay wrote:
Make all ships emit a small amount of interference that affects targeting range, scan Res, tracking, etc. Larger ships emit more interference over a larger radius where smaller ships emit less interference over a smaller radius. A few ships grouped together should be able to function normally with the small bits of interference from the other ships, but once you start getting many ships grouped together tightly, the collective interference from all the ships will render all of the ships within a certain range useless.

Bam, large blobs now nerf themselves.

What happens if the blob is sitting on you at zero? Are you effected too?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Monty Kvaran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-02-16 00:58:29 UTC
Part of the problem is that the term blob is relative. Some people call a 4-5 man gang a blob. Its not reasonable to expect 1v1s or anything of the sort, and some of the most vocal critics of blobbing are looking for just that. It would be helpful to a discussion like this for people to define what they consider the threshold for blobbing to be.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-02-16 03:46:44 UTC
Remove local.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-02-16 04:54:23 UTC
Dozens of ships aren't a blob, besides I thought that outnumbering your opponent was a valid tactic...

Plenty of corps/alliances fight outnumbered and win, just play better.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Twisted Trucker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-02-16 07:36:38 UTC
Monty Kvaran wrote:
Part of the problem is that the term blob is relative. Some people call a 4-5 man gang a blob. Its not reasonable to expect 1v1s or anything of the sort, and some of the most vocal critics of blobbing are looking for just that. It would be helpful to a discussion like this for people to define what they consider the threshold for blobbing to be.


Well, given that fleets can be formed with upwards of 256 players per fleet, I'm guessing they want fleets nerfed to somewhat less than that. Man, that's gonna make those 0.0 fleet fights, suck ballz to organise!
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#12 - 2012-02-16 10:40:45 UTC
I think that what makes blob to be such viable tactic is that it scales well. One of very first things I learned about EVE was the rule of diminishing returns: further increase of efficiency by another step requires that times more effort. Thus skill training works like it works and thus stacking penalties.

With blob if you want twice as much dps you just need twice the men and BLAM!, you have it. And sky is the limit.

On the other hand I don't see an easy way to counter it. You can impose stacking penalties because you know all those modules are placed in the same ship. How do you know who belongs to blob or not? Being in the same fleet? Corporation? Alliance? All this can be worked around. Being in the same place? So then blob's victim is also blob's member (and ironically sniping members wouldn't be treated as such).
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#13 - 2012-02-16 11:41:07 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Join Faction Warfare for 6 months. You'll find ways of getting around the "blob" and occasionally smashing it (hint: speed and kiting).


I've been in faction warfare for about four months; the blob negates the speed and kiting advantage, because they usually have dozens of ships, most of which have some kind of scram or webber fitted. Weapons aren't very useful, either, because the most common blob formation is one that frigates and smaller ships don't have a prayer against one-on-one.

I'm just trying to say that CCP really needs to do something to disincentivize blobbing, before being in a blob becomes the only way someone can be convinced to undock.


So... what you're saying is that you want to be able to kill a bigger and better armed fleet, with a few frigates?

With all due respect, I suggest joining a 0.0 alliance for a while and learning how they deal with blobs of different sizes and configurations. There are ways to configure your ships and your fleets in order to fight out-numbered against the other guys' blob but it's clear that you haven't learned them yet. A stint in a proper PVP alliance might really be an eye opener for you.

And just to be clear, even if you learn the ropes, you will still encounter blobs that your fleet can't handle. That's just part of the game.

T-
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#14 - 2012-02-16 15:35:58 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:


So... what you're saying is that you want to be able to kill a bigger and better armed fleet, with a few frigates?

With all due respect, I suggest joining a 0.0 alliance for a while and learning how they deal with blobs of different sizes and configurations. There are ways to configure your ships and your fleets in order to fight out-numbered against the other guys' blob but it's clear that you haven't learned them yet. A stint in a proper PVP alliance might really be an eye opener for you.

And just to be clear, even if you learn the ropes, you will still encounter blobs that your fleet can't handle. That's just part of the game.

T-


What I'm saying is that I want a chance to fight back, before the blob web and scrams me all to hell and turns my ship into a perforated tin can. A blob, in all honesty, doesn't even need to scram -- just get big ships, jam as many guns onto them as will fit, and have at it.

I don't want to have to leave my corp just so I can have a fair chance.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Griptus
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-02-16 16:18:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Griptus
The most obvious problem with blobs has been a fundamental issue with Eve since launch, which is that ships don't occlude each other. Every ship in a blob can target and fire on anything without worrying about blowing each other up. If they did, then the only ships you would have to worry about would be the ones closest to you. They should act as a wall between you and all the other ships behind them. This alone would give smaller fleets and single ships a more realistic chance of survival as well introduce the need for special formations and maneuvers.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-02-16 16:39:38 UTC
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#17 - 2012-02-16 17:13:00 UTC
How to fix the Blob and lag at the same time:

Bring back AoE doomsdays!

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#18 - 2012-02-16 17:42:55 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:


What I'm saying is that I want a chance to fight back, before the blob web and scrams me all to hell and turns my ship into a perforated tin can. A blob, in all honesty, doesn't even need to scram -- just get big ships, jam as many guns onto them as will fit, and have at it.

I don't want to have to leave my corp just so I can have a fair chance.


You don't have to leave your corp but my point is, and I mean this with good intentions, that if you don't understand how to fight in fleet-vs-fleet encounters then you need to get experience with FC's and pilots who can show you how. It's something that CAN be learned... but evidently not by doing what you have been doing.

Almost every ship type can be fit multiple ways and every configuration you choose has it's own "Thor's hammer" and "Achilles heel" that will work to your advantage (or disadvantage). The trick is to start to get a feeling for what they other guys' Achilles heel is so you can configure your own fleet to fight against it's weakest point(s). .... Just like you know that a Vagabond will kill a Talos 9 (or maybe 10) times out of 10, you will eventually start to get a feeling for what a fleet of armor hacs can do to a larger fleet of battleships, or a fleet of drakes against a larger fleet of armor hacs... for example. It's about fleet configuration in addition to ship configuration and it's about having FC's who get it and can exploit the other guys' weakness. These are skills that can be learned.

If I could make a suggestion, talk to your corp leaders and suggest doing a stint in a (successful) 0.0 alliance for a while. If you use that time to intelligently analyze what fleets and fleet commanders do then you really will benefit on the long term. You'll even start to win some fights.

T-
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#19 - 2012-02-16 18:26:53 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:
Astrid Stjerna wrote:


What I'm saying is that I want a chance to fight back, before the blob web and scrams me all to hell and turns my ship into a perforated tin can. A blob, in all honesty, doesn't even need to scram -- just get big ships, jam as many guns onto them as will fit, and have at it.

I don't want to have to leave my corp just so I can have a fair chance.


You don't have to leave your corp but my point is, and I mean this with good intentions, that if you don't understand how to fight in fleet-vs-fleet encounters then you need to get experience with FC's and pilots who can show you how. It's something that CAN be learned... but evidently not by doing what you have been doing.

Almost every ship type can be fit multiple ways and every configuration you choose has it's own "Thor's hammer" and "Achilles heel" that will work to your advantage (or disadvantage). The trick is to start to get a feeling for what they other guys' Achilles heel is so you can configure your own fleet to fight against it's weakest point(s). .... Just like you know that a Vagabond will kill a Talos 9 (or maybe 10) times out of 10, you will eventually start to get a feeling for what a fleet of armor hacs can do to a larger fleet of battleships, or a fleet of drakes against a larger fleet of armor hacs... for example. It's about fleet configuration in addition to ship configuration and it's about having FC's who get it and can exploit the other guys' weakness. These are skills that can be learned.

If I could make a suggestion, talk to your corp leaders and suggest doing a stint in a (successful) 0.0 alliance for a while. If you use that time to intelligently analyze what fleets and fleet commanders do then you really will benefit on the long term. You'll even start to win some fights.

T-



Confronting weaknesses does not good -- however well your ship is fit -- when it's 25-to-1 and you can't move.

That's what I've been saying all along. Tactics, and fittings are good, and weaknesses are easily exploitable, but you have to live long enough to exploit them before they become very useful.

As it is now, you jump into a hafway-prepared blob and you're almost instantly locked down and under fire. No way to get away, no way to fight back, and even if you can escape the scrams and webs, you're still facing nearly-impossble odds by way of the amount of sheer firepower a blob can bring to bear.

Like I said, I have no problem going down in a fireball to a blob -- it's just a far more satisfying experience, for me and them, if I have a chance to do more than just sit in a pile of scrams waiting to die.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-02-16 19:04:17 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Confronting weaknesses does not good -- however well your ship is fit -- when it's 25-to-1 and you can't move.

That's what I've been saying all along. Tactics, and fittings are good, and weaknesses are easily exploitable, but you have to live long enough to exploit them before they become very useful.

As it is now, you jump into a hafway-prepared blob and you're almost instantly locked down and under fire. No way to get away, no way to fight back, and even if you can escape the scrams and webs, you're still facing nearly-impossble odds by way of the amount of sheer firepower a blob can bring to bear.

Like I said, I have no problem going down in a fireball to a blob -- it's just a far more satisfying experience, for me and them, if I have a chance to do more than just sit in a pile of scrams waiting to die.


How about learning to dictate range, fly with a friend, or use an alt to scout.

Posting on the forum isn't going to make you better at EvE, apparently you're not so great at piloting your ship.

Go forth, practice, and get better.




(Also- LOL 25 Man Blob!)
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