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Need help on combating alleged market bot.
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Razz XXX
Vashta Nerada Corp
#1 - 2012-02-14 22:16:50 UTC
I for one don't use or ever used a bot or programs for updating my orders.

I know CCP refuse to believe in market bots (Area 51) but over past year; I strongly believe that there are market bots after selling avg. 10b week and market total of 70b in orders. There few different types some not as bad as others for example. Active Bot is constantly scanning and updating to be lowest seller. Some Active bots are easy to spot like take same cents amount. For example sell orders all ending .53 & never miss a beat. The other is Inactive Bot scanner takes from 15 min to 30 mins to update orders this also depends on how often he logs on, my guess just uses program to show what needs to be update. Usually changes .01, and they are inactive when you change right after you get a delayed response about 15min later never sooner. I don't mind Inactive ones, seem to skirt around rules a little but bearable.

The one I having problem with is Active bot that logs on most active parts of day say 18:00 to 22:00 eve time. There's no way out bidding the bot during this time except in Jita you can pick same amount bot post this stops the bot from updating. Which is how I know this is bot because after few test, changing amount lower the bot kicks in and updates. Again it stops after updating after change it back to same price.

My options are limited: Not giving up on market. And to send name to CCP does little from what have read here.

I guess my question is only way combat active bot is crash market? But this option is takes doubling up orders and no profit for months at time.

Maybe this will be down fall of Eve. A Market run by bots serving bots. Hell with people as long someone buying our Plex.
Brock Nelson
#2 - 2012-02-14 22:27:15 UTC
Drop the price and continue to do so until its profitable to buy him out and relist it.

Honestly, how can you tell the differences between a bot that logs on during certain time of the day and a market pvp'er? Only way to tell is when you carry out the tactic above, is how he reacts.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom
Gaia Ma'chello
Photosynth
#3 - 2012-02-14 22:43:38 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
Drop the price and continue to do so until its profitable to buy him out and relist it.

Honestly, how can you tell the differences between a bot that logs on during certain time of the day and a market pvp'er? Only way to tell is when you carry out the tactic above, is how he reacts.


That only works if you are competing against a bot on sell orders. What about on buy orders?
Razz XXX
Vashta Nerada Corp
#4 - 2012-02-14 22:43:50 UTC

You can spot Active Bot by pick same amount bot post this stops the bot from updating from what I have found in jita. But inactive bot hard to tell for market pvp'er maybe peeps. But you can trick bots by crashing market then back up. I also add them to contacts so figure out who's. Peeps make mistakes switch 8 for 6. Over time you can figure who's who or what.
Razz XXX
Vashta Nerada Corp
#5 - 2012-02-14 22:48:52 UTC
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
Drop the price and continue to do so until its profitable to buy him out and relist it.

Honestly, how can you tell the differences between a bot that logs on during certain time of the day and a market pvp'er? Only way to tell is when you carry out the tactic above, is how he reacts.


That only works if you are competing against a bot on sell orders. What about on buy orders?


If person try trick him with simple change 985775.78 to 96577.78 sometimes person miss this. Bot doesn't.
David Forge
GameOn Inc.
#6 - 2012-02-15 01:06:43 UTC
Which only means that you can occasionally prove that it is a person but still never that it is a bot. Not to get philosophical about it.
Fortune Foru
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-02-15 03:34:55 UTC
Razz XXX wrote:

You can spot Active Bot by pick same amount bot post this stops the bot from updating from what I have found in jita. But inactive bot hard to tell for market pvp'er maybe peeps. But you can trick bots by crashing market then back up. I also add them to contacts so figure out who's. Peeps make mistakes switch 8 for 6. Over time you can figure who's who or what.


Or your just reporting your competition to CCP hoping they will get banned so you can use your bots more effectively?

Prove me wrong.
malaire
#8 - 2012-02-15 09:31:44 UTC
Razz XXX wrote:
The other is Inactive Bot scanner takes from 15 min to 30 mins to update orders this also depends on how often he logs on, my guess just uses program to show what needs to be update. Usually changes .01, and they are inactive when you change right after you get a delayed response about 15min later never sooner. I don't mind Inactive ones, seem to skirt around rules a little but bearable.


Some automation is allowed. That is exactly the kind of response my competitors usually see from me, since I use automatic notifications and then go update my prices manually when I feel like it.

Don't call that "skirting rules". I specifically petitioned this to be sure and CCP said that this is allowed. (i.e. using official javascript API to open market details of items, then using cache-reading to get that data out of game.)

Razz XXX wrote:
If person try trick him with simple change 985775.78 to 96577.78 sometimes person miss this. Bot doesn't.

If person uses program to calculate new price and then copy pastes that to Modify Order window (as I do), then person never misses that.

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
Lutin Ballista
Ballista Investment Corp
#9 - 2012-02-15 14:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lutin Ballista
I always end my buy orders and sell orders with a funny number at the end so that I can easily find them when I check the market a few minutes later. I'm on 8-10 UK time. Its market PVP.
Razz XXX
Vashta Nerada Corp
#10 - 2012-02-15 15:41:47 UTC
malaire wrote:
Don't call that "skirting rules". I specifically petitioned this to be sure and CCP said that this is allowed. (i.e. using official javascript API to open market details of items, then using cache-reading to get that data out of game.)


You must had some reason to question the legitimacy of your work to petition it? But again, I have no problem with inactive scanner; Brains over brute strength. Good luck to you.
malaire
#11 - 2012-02-15 15:45:29 UTC
Razz XXX wrote:
malaire wrote:
Don't call that "skirting rules". I specifically petitioned this to be sure and CCP said that this is allowed. (i.e. using official javascript API to open market details of items, then using cache-reading to get that data out of game.)


You must had some reason to question the legitimacy of your work to petition it? But again, I have no problem with inactive scanner; Brains over brute strength. Good luck to you.

yes, back then I argued that such automation should not be allowed. But when I learned that it is, I decided to (ab)use it as much as I can within rules.

I still hope that someday CCP makes cachereaders not work anymore - or at least disables javascript part needed to automate that.

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
Razz XXX
Vashta Nerada Corp
#12 - 2012-02-15 16:00:10 UTC
malaire wrote:
yes, back then I argued that such automation should not be allowed. But when I learned that it is, I decided to (ab)use it as much as I can within rules.

I still hope that someday CCP makes cachereaders not work anymore - or at least disables javascript part needed to automate that.


knowledge double edged sword.
Devai Starchild
Starchild Engineering
#13 - 2012-02-15 19:50:55 UTC
That inactive bot is probably just a player using a program to see when he has been outbid and then manually updating his orders. That is not botting and as far I am concerned it is not cheating.

An active bot will constantly be running and checking orders, as soon as it sees it is outbid, it will lower it's price to .01 isk below or above (for sell and buy orders respectively). It will do this as long as it is within a certain percentage range of profitability.

You cannot beat them. The only thing you can do is report them.