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Naga and Tornado, As Snipers
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Battle Nova
Terran Republic Medical Corp
#1 - 2012-02-15 16:45:32 UTC
Today I discussed with someone, about Naga and Tornado as a sniper. Here are something I heard from him:

(1) As a sniper, Naga is a piece of trash from all directions, compared to Tornado.

(2) Tornado can have a 10,000+ DPH, and I don't think Naga can do so. If a ship doesn't have a 10,000+ DPH, please don't use it for sniper role.

(3) You say Naga can shoot from 249KM? Oh come on, you won't have enough time to blow up your enemies before they run away.

(4) After all, Naga is for noob snipers and FCs. I've never seen anyone in Tranquility use Naga as a sniper can win a battle, and I am sure experienced FCs will always use Tornado for a sniper team.

Well, are those points make sense?
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-02-15 16:51:24 UTC
Battle Nova wrote:
Today I discussed with someone, about Naga and Tornado as a sniper. Here are something I heard from him:

(1) As a sniper, Naga is a piece of trash from all directions, compared to Tornado.

(2) Tornado can have a 10,000+ DPH, and I don't think Naga can do so. If a ship doesn't have a 10,000+ DPH, please don't use it for sniper role.

(3) You say Naga can shoot from 249KM? Oh come on, you won't have enough time to blow up your enemies before they run away.

(4) After all, Naga is for noob snipers and FCs. I've never seen anyone in Tranquility use Naga as a sniper can win a battle, and I am sure experienced FCs will always use Tornado for a sniper team.

Well, are those points make sense?


Your friend is dumb

No sig.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#3 - 2012-02-15 16:57:54 UTC
Battle Nova wrote:
Well, are those points make sense?


No.

The single reason to use a Tornado over Naga is the high alpha of Arties. After that you are really splitting hairs over it imo.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-02-15 17:05:48 UTC
Assuming we are comparing Artillery Tornado vs Railgun Naga.

Naga has better overall DPS, Tank and tracking. Tornado has better speed and alpha-strike. By alpha-strike I mean that artillery fires really slowly, but does a lot of damage per hit.

Generally alpha strike are important for a sniper ship, because you want the first volley to kill the ship you are aiming at. This is for two reasons. Firstly they might not be warp disrupted because they are too far away, so you want to kill them before they warp off. Secondly if they have any logistics with them you want to kill them before they get repaired.

Assuming the DPH = Damage per hit, you are right. A Tornado can do 10000 damage per hit, the Naga cannot.
Alara IonStorm
#5 - 2012-02-15 17:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

Assuming the DPH = Damage per hit, you are right. A Tornado can do 10000 damage per hit, the Naga cannot.

It can but that information is not relevant in a Sniper Fight. You should never be close enough to use close range in a tankless Sniper Fit. Whelp Fit yes but not a Sniper Fit. More around 6000 with T2 LR Ammo.

That being said enough Naga's can Alpha Ships. The difference is that they can Alpha 3 Ships to a Tornado Gangs 1.
Battle Nova
Terran Republic Medical Corp
#6 - 2012-02-15 17:14:47 UTC
Hmmm, if Tornado wants to have a 10,000+ DPH, it has to use Quake or Fleet EMP/Fusion/Phased Plasma. However, using those ammo will make the shooting range relatively short, thus not very suitable to the "sniper" role we are talking about. Well, maybe Tornado is good for short-range snipe (around 100KM+), while Naga will do a great job in long-range snipe (150KM+, or 200KM+).
GF07M8
#7 - 2012-02-15 17:43:44 UTC
Tidi makes nagas better in large fleet situations, or rather it makes slow-firing arty worse. In terms of skirmish style sniping however, nobody has yet convinced me alpha isn't king. As it should be I guess.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-02-15 18:00:29 UTC
GF07M8 wrote:
Tidi makes nagas better in large fleet situations, or rather it makes slow-firing arty worse. In terms of skirmish style sniping however, nobody has yet convinced me alpha isn't king. As it should be I guess.


Short engagments= alpha. extended engagments = DPS. The only way that I can think that DPS wins in short engagments is when you're switching targets often. Higher ROF means that you can switch your damage quicker than the long cooldown of artillery.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
GF07M8
#9 - 2012-02-15 19:18:31 UTC  |  Edited by: GF07M8
Garr Earthbender wrote:
GF07M8 wrote:
Tidi makes nagas better in large fleet situations, or rather it makes slow-firing arty worse. In terms of skirmish style sniping however, nobody has yet convinced me alpha isn't king. As it should be I guess.


Short engagments= alpha. extended engagments = DPS. The only way that I can think that DPS wins in short engagments is when you're switching targets often. Higher ROF means that you can switch your damage quicker than the long cooldown of artillery.


In the absence of lots of tackle and meat shields I don't think you'll find any tier3 bc capable of an "extended engagement," by virtue of their ehp being nil. Alpha really has no drawback in the niche they inhabit, in the absence of tidi making their volleys come once per minute or worse.

Of course the naga can compete, but any argumen that the tornado isn't essentially perfect for their intended role is incorrect.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-02-15 19:32:04 UTC
Right. Meat shields are needed, as well as tackle. I'd say that they're useful in gangs up to say.....30 as ranged DPS. I've never had an FC say no to a tier 3 BC sniper, medium range, or close in fit (when we're doing gang roams). Extra BS dps is NEVER frowned upon. Just fail piloting.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#11 - 2012-02-15 20:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
OP- read this;

http://www.evealtruist.com/2012/01/know-your-enemy-tier-3-battlecruisers.html

PS- your friend is the typical EVE simpleton who tries to speak absolutes and make things black and white while ignoring the grey areas found in the pvp spectrum. Only fools speak in absolutes

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#12 - 2012-02-15 20:17:10 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
OP- read this;

http://www.evealtruist.com/2012/01/know-your-enemy-tier-3-battlecruisers.html

PS- your friend is the typical EVE simpleton who tries to speak absolutes and make things black and white while ignoring the grey areas found in the pvp spectrum. Only fools speak in absolutes


Or someone trying to forum warrior. You'd probably be surprised how flexible I am in game for all the black/white talk I've made on the forums. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#13 - 2012-02-15 20:21:54 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:
OP- read this;

http://www.evealtruist.com/2012/01/know-your-enemy-tier-3-battlecruisers.html

PS- your friend is the typical EVE simpleton who tries to speak absolutes and make things black and white while ignoring the grey areas found in the pvp spectrum. Only fools speak in absolutes


Or someone trying to forum warrior. You'd probably be surprised how flexible I am in game for all the black/white talk I've made on the forums. :)

-Liang


Strangely, I think you've always made caveats and tried admitting that there are scenarios which goes beyond the black and white. But then again, I could be drinking your kool aid :)

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Gildinous Vangaurd
The Initiative.
#14 - 2012-02-15 20:30:45 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
But then again, I could be drinking your kool aid :)


You're not sharing why?

To the OP - I am nowhere near the experienced PvPer some of these folks are, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

One of the relatively few disappointments I've encountered in EVE, is that for all of its open sandbox attitude, a lot of folks get stuck in a handful of ruts. Yeah, I get it, it's human nature to stick with what is known to work. That's where a lot of the attitude stems from that you're encountering. There's nothing to say you can't experiment with a variation on a theme or try and devise your own theme. It might cost you a ship or three dozen, but you never know what it might yield.

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"
Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#15 - 2012-02-15 20:48:29 UTC
In small fights (aka not many snipers on the grid) the alpha of the Tornado isn't enough against bigger targets (Well tanked Cruiser and upwards) and once you lose the value of Alpha if comes down to DPS and the Naga just wins there.

Also the range difference is very real, a naga shoots much further.

Sum up:
Tornado if you have enough of them or if the target(s) are small enough.
Naga for everything else.
river Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-02-16 02:37:24 UTC
I can;t choose they both are cool looking and awsome!