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Community HATES thought of FtP but their actions push CCP that way

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Ai Shun
#121 - 2012-02-14 20:01:34 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
If you could post something that contradicts my observation I would love to see it. No chart based on subscription numbers will ever disprove what I am saying, which is that less people log onto the server nowadays.


I observe there are more players online. That disproves your observation. Do you see what I did there? I'd trust empirical data over a subjective observation.

Valei Khurelem wrote:
No, 39k online with how much was it last announcement? 200,000 subscribers? ( correct me if I'm wrong on that number but that's the last report I remember ) Says this is an unpopular game, if CCP had devoted themselves to this type of game and making EVE as good as it can be rather than going for get rich quick schemes or pissing away their time on unknown MMORPGs and games they'd have far more people playing than people just subscribing.


I was going to reply to you; but your point has pretty much been smacked down for the **** it is already. I will add however that CCP has indicated their subscription model and game results in a very loyal player-base if they stay subscribed for the initial period. It is in the latest CSM releases.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-02-14 23:00:19 UTC
I wouldn't say that EvE is an unpopular game. In fact it is extremely popular...for being hard as hell to play. Which is why it has nowhere near the number of subscribers as the higher ranked MMO's out there. Games like WoW, EQ, ToR and the like have the subscriber numbers they have because they are easy and casual friendly. EvE is difficult and does not cater to the average player. Doesn't mean it's a bad game...means it is a niche game.

By the way...I think Star Wars: The Old Republic is averaging something like 500k players on at a given time right now. If I am not mistaken that is almost as many subscribers as EvE has. Either way...no comparison on all levels. There is no other MMO like EvE and it has no reason to and doesn't need to compete with any other MMO right now.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#123 - 2012-02-15 19:23:15 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Quote:
39k online says that EVE is a niche product.


No, 39k online with how much was it last announcement? 200,000 subscribers?


According to these articles[1][2] your average SWTOR server can expect to have somewhere between 1400 and 2700 people. This includes both the shards and the "sharded zones" that have different people running on the same map. Thus, we could say (for example) that 39k people online is the equivalent of 14 and 27 servers. Split the difference and call it 21.

So lets assume that SWTOR is representative of all sharded MMOs and note that Rift has 16 US TZ servers and 18 EU TZ servers[3]. Noting that only one of those server sets really comes into play at a time, we can safely say that on average that Eve has ~15% more people playing than Rift does.

Now, one might argue that its terrible if Eve is merely as popular as Rift - afterall, Rift just went half free to play! However, the situations are quite distinct. Consider:
- Eve has long since been turning a profit, and is continuing to turn quite a pretty penny in profit. Enough to outright pay for the development of at least one extra game.
- Eve's sub graph doesn't look like Rift's[4].
- Eve's sub graph has a high correlation to its population graph. Consider the server metrics [5][6] as well.

Basically: while 39k seems like its "really low"... its actually not.

-Liang

[1] http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-03-swtor-has-350-000-peak-concurrent-users-report
[2] http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=240117
[3] http://www.riftstatus.com/
[4] http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
[5] http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4i
[6] http://bit.ly/z55dg6


It is good to see such high quality posts, thank you.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#124 - 2012-02-15 19:42:05 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I wouldn't say that EvE is an unpopular game. In fact it is extremely popular...for being hard as hell to play. Which is why it has nowhere near the number of subscribers as the higher ranked MMO's out there. Games like WoW, EQ, ToR and the like have the subscriber numbers they have because they are easy and casual friendly. EvE is difficult and does not cater to the average player. Doesn't mean it's a bad game...means it is a niche game.

By the way...I think Star Wars: The Old Republic is averaging something like 500k players on at a given time right now. If I am not mistaken that is almost as many subscribers as EvE has. Either way...no comparison on all levels. There is no other MMO like EvE and it has no reason to and doesn't need to compete with any other MMO right now.


No, their max PCU so far is 350k. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ehn Roh
#125 - 2012-02-15 19:48:22 UTC
Quote:
I could go on but you know what I have stated isn't just hyperbole, it is by and large reality. This community is incredibly self-destructive and loathsome.


So what? It keeps growing regardless. Why fix something that isn't broken?

EVE's longevity is a direct result of the fact that they don't really have any competitors. Changing that would not end well for them.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#126 - 2012-02-15 19:57:26 UTC
Like EA's newest MMO that will take your character information in eve to make you an instant veteran will offer any competition? I can so see goonswarm go in and make a killing. matter of factly any eve player. Ebay all of the characters.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#127 - 2012-02-15 19:58:18 UTC
Ehn Roh wrote:
Quote:
I could go on but you know what I have stated isn't just hyperbole, it is by and large reality. This community is incredibly self-destructive and loathsome.


So what? It keeps growing regardless because of this. Why fix something that isn't broken?

Fixed. I (and many others) love the cut-through nature of EVE.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#128 - 2012-02-15 21:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
CCP Phantom wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Quote:
39k online says that EVE is a niche product.


No, 39k online with how much was it last announcement? 200,000 subscribers?


According to these articles[1][2] your average SWTOR server can expect to have somewhere between 1400 and 2700 people. This includes both the shards and the "sharded zones" that have different people running on the same map. Thus, we could say (for example) that 39k people online is the equivalent of 14 and 27 servers. Split the difference and call it 21.

So lets assume that SWTOR is representative of all sharded MMOs and note that Rift has 16 US TZ servers and 18 EU TZ servers[3]. Noting that only one of those server sets really comes into play at a time, we can safely say that on average that Eve has ~15% more people playing than Rift does.

Now, one might argue that its terrible if Eve is merely as popular as Rift - afterall, Rift just went half free to play! However, the situations are quite distinct. Consider:
- Eve has long since been turning a profit, and is continuing to turn quite a pretty penny in profit. Enough to outright pay for the development of at least one extra game.
- Eve's sub graph doesn't look like Rift's[4].
- Eve's sub graph has a high correlation to its population graph. Consider the server metrics [5][6] as well.

Basically: while 39k seems like its "really low"... its actually not.

-Liang

[1] http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-03-swtor-has-350-000-peak-concurrent-users-report
[2] http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=240117
[3] http://www.riftstatus.com/
[4] http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
[5] http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4i
[6] http://bit.ly/z55dg6


It is good to see such high quality posts, thank you.


No offense but....

If I were a dev I would love that post too. It alludes to subscriptions being up without CCP having to post the numbers. Then once you guys get more subs you can post the numbers again and release a dev blog or new QEN or whatever. You'll never have to publish how many subs Incarna cost.

Quote:
Basically: while 39k seems like its "really low"... its actually not.


I want CCP to succeed, I want enough people to play Eve to keep it alive indefinitely and I applaud what they have accomplished.

I am not saying its "really low", I am saying its lower than it could be and has been.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Lexmana
#129 - 2012-02-15 22:24:15 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
I am not saying its "really low", I am saying its lower than it could be and has been.

You do realize that numbers will always be lower than "has been" except on the rare occasions you reach all-time high.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#130 - 2012-02-15 22:38:36 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:

No offense but....

If I were a dev I would love that post too. It alludes to subscriptions being up without CCP having to post the numbers. Then once you guys get more subs you can post the numbers again and release a dev blog or new QEN or whatever. You'll never have to publish how many subs Incarna cost.


Comments:
- There's traditionally been a high correlation between players online and subs. Historic graphs for both subs and players online are both available. I'm not sure how you can try to spin this as subs being down.
- They DID say how many subs Incarna cost.

-_-

Quote:

Quote:
Basically: while 39k seems like its "really low"... its actually not.


I want CCP to succeed, I want enough people to play Eve to keep it alive indefinitely and I applaud what they have accomplished.

I am not saying its "really low", I am saying its lower than it could be and has been.


Yes, its lower than it has been and could be. But its quickly getting better, and in some timezones its actually better than its ever been.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Arafelis Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-02-15 22:40:33 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
So lets assume that SWTOR is representative of all sharded MMOs


Why are we making this assumption?

Quote:
we can safely say that on average that Eve has ~15% more people playing than Rift does.


One person -> one character?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#132 - 2012-02-15 22:49:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Arafelis Keikira wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
So lets assume that SWTOR is representative of all sharded MMOs


Why are we making this assumption?


Because Rift doesn't have any publically available statistics for what "low" "medium" and "high" represent. Furthermore, they don't let you see how many people are in the particular map instance you're in. When I was playing Rift, a "medium population" server would frequently sport < 5 people in any one of the main areas with perhaps 30 people in the central square of the capital city.

There was some information slippage that suggested the population cap on a server was ~800-1000 people, but I didn't feel it was well founded enough to actually run with it. Ultimately, the justification for that assumption is that they're both sharded MMOs with what appears to be similar ratios.

Consider that Rift top ended at ~70 servers with ~800-900k subs .. which seems to be similar to ~250 servers with 1.7M subs.

Quote:

Quote:
we can safely say that on average that Eve has ~15% more people playing than Rift does.


One person -> one character?


There's some CCP numbers that say there's ~1.25 subs per person on average. I'd have to go hunt it up.

-Liang

Ed: Much stronger discussion of Rift's PCU in my latest blog post here: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/mmo-pcu/

Basically: Rift servers have a population cap of 2k users and are never at capacity. They frequently cycle from low to medium (very occasionally heavy) depending on the time of day.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Arafelis Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#133 - 2012-02-15 22:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Arafelis Keikira
Liang Nuren wrote:
Because Rift doesn't have any publically available statistics for what "low" "medium" and "high" represent.


Well, that seems a little backwards, logically. Roll

Quote:
Ultimately, the justification for that assumption is that they're both sharded MMOs with what appears to be similar ratios.

Consider that Rift top ended at ~70 servers with ~800-900k subs .. which seems to be similar to ~250 servers with 1.7M subs.


Okay, fair enough. Er... wait. What? 70 servers with 900k subs is equal to twice that many subs on (mild hyperbole) four times (/mild hyperbole) that many servers?

I mean at this point it's just a technical objection, but geez. Now I have to go back over all your math. eh... tl;dr. P

Anyway it's obvious EVE's not dying. I'm here.
Katalci
Kismesis
#134 - 2012-02-15 23:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Katalci
Aiwha wrote:
EVE is a niche product marketed to a very small audience those of us who give no mercy and expect none in return. There are literally hundreds of other MMO's out there that don't tolerate certain "behaviors". Go play one of those if you dislike EVE.

This. The entire point of EVE is the freedom. If you remove the freedom to grief, steal, cheat, scam, gank, etc. then you wreck what makes EVE different from every other MMO, and it will die.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#135 - 2012-02-15 23:12:00 UTC
Arafelis Keikira wrote:

Okay, fair enough. Er... wait. What? 70 servers with 900k subs is equal to twice that many subs on (mild hyperbole) four times (/mild hyperbole) that many servers?

I mean at this point it's just a technical objection, but geez. Now I have to go back over all your math. eh... tl;dr. P

Anyway it's obvious EVE's not dying. I'm here.


The SWTOR numbers are pretty solid, but Trion (Rift) has always been really cagey about their sub and population numbers. I don't actually know if they had 900k subs at the same time they had 70 servers - though those were rough maxes I saw when googling about. I could put more effort into that comparison if you'd really like, but the biggest reason to draw the parallel from SWTOR's freely stated numbers to Rift is to illustrate how well Eve is doing compared to a "main stream" game.

I suppose we could make the direct comparison to SWTOR:
- SWTOR: 350k peak concurrent users / 1.7M subs. Ratio: 0.20588235294117646 (215 active servers, 125 US, 90 EU)
- Eve: 50356 peak concurrent users / ~375k subs. Ratio: 0.13428266666666666 (1 active server)

Eve sub numbers are shaky but I'd be surprised if they aren't in the right ballpark.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Arafelis Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#136 - 2012-02-16 00:15:54 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The SWTOR numbers are pretty solid, but Trion (Rift) has always been really cagey about their sub and population numbers. I don't actually know if they had 900k subs at the same time they had 70 servers - though those were rough maxes I saw when googling about. I could put more effort into that comparison if you'd really like, but the biggest reason to draw the parallel from SWTOR's freely stated numbers to Rift is to illustrate how well Eve is doing compared to a "main stream" game.


Drawing any comparisons to a month-old game is really shaky. And as you've said, we don't have very good data on Rift. The analysis is spurious, although far less so than the OP's apparent correlation between, hm, forum posts and sector activity?

The only really comparable games are Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and City of Heroes. Of the three, City of Heroes is the only one still publishing new content -- but I can't get any solid sub numbers on it. There's two-year-old data of "120k," but it's unreliable at best, and the game's gone f2p since then.

I guess a better question though is why we're even concerned? With the publication of Dust 514 (what got me to take a new look at EVE, incidentally), it's fairly obvious the studio isn't planning on abandoning the property anytime soon. I think a much better question than, "is the game dying?" is, "is the community healthy?" "Are new players joining the game?" "Are people having fun?"

Well.

So let's also focus on a much more productive avenue of attack. What's the OP's underlying grievance, and what would it take to resolve it?
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#137 - 2012-02-16 01:47:47 UTC
The chart that I had posted a page back had Rift start with 600K subs and drop down to 480K about 3 months in. I'm positive that it had dropped down further than that since then as they have closed several servers at around 6 months (maybe later) but just before I left they opened up Russia to the game.

I had the discussion with somebody else in Rift and the server size is the same as SWTOR with <1000 being low and 3000 being high.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2012-02-16 02:14:30 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:

Not my job to research others claims. I'll just mark it down as non factual for the time being.


No, it's your "job" to troll forums and derail anything that threatens your little pixel sand castle.

That said, you guys are all a little new? The game is 8 years old, nothing has changed. Bad behaviour has always been rewarded in EVE 500% more than honor or integrity. CCp have managed for 8 years without ever implementing a mechanic (not an employee) that allows the game to thrive in civility. The Null Bears and pew Bears have full backing by CCP.

The rest of EVE are seen as usefull idiots.

This is EVE. Adapt or GTFO.


EVE is a sandbox by nature, which means the players make the "content" for the most part. If EVE turned into happy fun carebear theme park it would be an extremely boring game. Its the unpredictable sandbox that makes EVE appealing.

I played another mmo that will not be named for 6 years, and it was the same old thing every week, show up for raid at the designated time, kill the same scripted dragons you killed last week, the only "progress" you see is either a new piece of gear or another boss kill on some epeen waving site.

With EVE you really never know exactly what you are doing from one day to the next (unless you do nothing but PvE), one night you could end up in a 1000+ person fleet battle, the next night it could be quiet giving you some time to make isk.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#139 - 2012-02-16 03:17:17 UTC
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:

Not my job to research others claims. I'll just mark it down as non factual for the time being.


No, it's your "job" to troll forums and derail anything that threatens your little pixel sand castle.

That said, you guys are all a little new? The game is 8 years old, nothing has changed. Bad behaviour has always been rewarded in EVE 500% more than honor or integrity. CCp have managed for 8 years without ever implementing a mechanic (not an employee) that allows the game to thrive in civility. The Null Bears and pew Bears have full backing by CCP.

The rest of EVE are seen as usefull idiots.

This is EVE. Adapt or GTFO.


EVE is a sandbox by nature, which means the players make the "content" for the most part. If EVE turned into happy fun carebear theme park it would be an extremely boring game. Its the unpredictable sandbox that makes EVE appealing.

I played another mmo that will not be named for 6 years, and it was the same old thing every week, show up for raid at the designated time, kill the same scripted dragons you killed last week, the only "progress" you see is either a new piece of gear or another boss kill on some epeen waving site.

With EVE you really never know exactly what you are doing from one day to the next (unless you do nothing but PvE), one night you could end up in a 1000+ person fleet battle, the next night it could be quiet giving you some time to make isk.



I just came after something like 2 years of vacation and most of what you stated is the reason why I came back. I cycled through several other mmo's during that time and nothing out there truly has what Eve has to offer.

  • First off I really enjoy a player ran economy. Some may argue that other games have a similar economy with the auction house but it doesn't even compare when you get down to it. With those games certain items tend to be controlled more due to rarity of drops making competition very tight. In most cases the gear you end up wanting can only be achieved through raiding making the AH useless. And with a AH it's all centralized where in Eve item price varies significantly through the entire universe creating a side profession (or full if you're really good) of market trading.

    Full item loss in combat pares perfectly with the player driven economy. Yeah it sucks losing a ship and having to spend time to build a new one but it's a perfect isk sink that keeps driving the economy. No gear loss eventually leads to very little purchased once all of your character slots are taken up and maxed (usually it becomes consumables at this point).

    In Eve you aren't locked to any specific class. You can train what you want, how you want. The best part is that there is no grind involved in the process and you even train when you're offline. Seriously, name another game that offers that. This effectively removes class imbalance issues and narrows it to specific skills.

    And as you stated, this is a game that truly offers a sandbox feel with what you choose to do with your character. The team basically lays a bunch of tools out in front of you and the rest is up to you. You might decide you want to do industry for a while, or maybe go try to live in low or null sec for a bit (where the rules truly are what the players make them), or you decide on playing the market for a while, or doing something as simple as hauling goods all day. The choice is yours. The is no linear path telling you to work your way from point a to point b and then accomplish x tasks to get the epic armor where eventually you will run out of things to do.

    I also enjoy that the sides are what you make them. I've been long trying to advocate that 2 side mmo's are bound to fail simply due to my tipping scale theory. No 2 sides are ever equal, and when one side starts to win more often people tend to jump ship of the losing side making the imbalance more noticeable until one side absolutely dominates. 3 sided mmo's (DAOC) fare much better as 2 sides can make a temporary alliance to strike at the third side but truly the best method are the mmo's with player created teams.


Every MMO that I've played between the time that I quit and now either had only a few of the above items or none at all and it truly detracts from the overall experience which has taught me that Eve is truly one of the best games out there.

Side note: I never really read Sisohiv's message fully when he raged on me but now that I have I'm wondering why he quoted me in the first place. The guy should read more and blind fire less.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Vizvayu Koga
#140 - 2012-02-16 04:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vizvayu Koga
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:

EVE is a sandbox by nature, which means the players make the "content" for the most part. If EVE turned into happy fun carebear theme park it would be an extremely boring game. Its the unpredictable sandbox that makes EVE appealing.

I played another mmo that will not be named for 6 years, and it was the same old thing every week, show up for raid at the designated time, kill the same scripted dragons you killed last week, the only "progress" you see is either a new piece of gear or another boss kill on some epeen waving site.

With EVE you really never know exactly what you are doing from one day to the next (unless you do nothing but PvE), one night you could end up in a 1000+ person fleet battle, the next night it could be quiet giving you some time to make isk.


I see the sandbox and freedom topics are very common on this kind of thread, and I agree with this up to some extent, but EVE is not truly a sandbox, not 100% at least. We have imposed rules and game mechanics that, sometimes obviously, other times more subtly, lead players to certain goals and also define "better" ways to reach those goals. This means that many times, the way players react (in game, in forums or in comms) is conditioned by CCP's rules, even if they (players) think is just their internal nature (or human nature) to react like that and do the things they do, the way they do.