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Speech to the Federal Senate - 6.2.114 - Not All Civilisations Are Equal
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2012-02-07 21:06:14 UTC
I agree with the title of the speech - it's true that not all civilisations are equal.

The actual text of the speech was a pile of tripe though.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#22 - 2012-02-08 01:24:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Hans Nardieu wrote:
Gallentean civilisation has uplifted so many others. No civilisation has been unimproved by contact with our people. The dream of a universal Federation of humanity [...]


The irony of this statement is truly beyond description.

Hans Nardieu wrote:
My predecessor in this role warned this chamber many times of the danger posed by the Amarr Empire.


Dangerous because their goals are exactly the bloody same as yours, mate, if your bigoted jingoist spew is anything to go by. Two predators + same desired prey + same feeding/hunting grounds = fight between them.

Whoever wins is of ultimately little concern to the prey, I think...

Hans Nardieu wrote:
He said that, alone, among the peoples of New Eden, the Amarr could never be Federated, could never accept the principles outlined in the Articles of Federation.


How do you say "Reclaiming" in Gallentean? And from which part of the Scriptures are you justifying yours? It's exactly the same damned thing, look in a mirror.

Hey, I got a joke for ya, Hansie:

Q: What does a Gallentean nationalist see when he looks in a mirror?

A: God

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Barrent Cesaille
Federal Nationalist Party
#23 - 2012-02-08 03:08:57 UTC
That joke sounds fairly familiar for some reason.
Senn Typhos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-02-08 06:07:04 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Senn Typhos wrote:
We could instead discuss the Federation's POW scandal, if you prefer, since that came to light roughly one year ago.


As if the Caldari State does a good job of distinguishing "civilian" from "soldier" themselves. I suppose that's what you get when you're bombarded from space by fascists, forcing everyone to pull their own weight in equal fashion.

Anyway, war brings out the worst in human nature, and human nature is not contigent with any culture or society. Inhumane actions occur from all sides in a war. As you just called it, it was a "scandal", as the population went into a moral outcry, believing such behaviour to not be appropiate or acceptable according to Federal ideals. They felt it was not 'organic' behaviour.


It is entirely organic behavior, coming from a culture of individualism. In fact, it's nearly inevitable that such behavior will arise under such cultural circumstances.
Rorin Cutter
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#25 - 2012-02-08 10:18:32 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
I agree with the title of the speech - it's true that not all civilisations are equal.

The actual text of the speech was a pile of tripe though.



Very true.

There is no civilization that is equal to the Amarrian civilization.

Always remember, God is watching you. Praise him, and be truly free, slight him and be a slave forever.

Amarr Victor!

-Rorin Cutter
Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-02-08 10:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Khazarn Areth
This seems to come across as childish bickering as to who has the better play pen, though both are rather similar underneath the cultural veneer, time and actions will tell gentlemen, time and actions will tell.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Kentt Em'asep
Clone Red Creations
#27 - 2012-02-08 10:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kentt Em'asep
I agree with Areth on the feeling that some is of the "bickering nature".


To the opening poster's challenge, I'll provide some input, even though I am not much of a verbal man as well. I am also not Gallente of course, but I have lived there for nearly half my life.

I'll be honest, and I hold a very neutral stance on most things.

Their lives are different from those of the Federation. They were brought up from a different history, have different morals, and also hold different beliefs. It will be very hard for them to see the positives of the Federation's view of things such as democracy, "freedom of speech", or slavery. It would be just as hard as any of us who have not lived in the Empire to view the positives of their civilization's structure or their views from their eyes.

With that said, I doubt the values of both the Federation and the Empire can really be sided equally without concidering the positives that both bring from the eyes of each race. To stand in their shoes... or vice-versa. Each would condem the other for how things are done, as easilly seen from some of the responses before mine. Becasue that is how they were raised and brought up in the galaxy.

~"That's right. Today, tomorrow, the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that... from here on until forever, every time you look at my avatar - you'll see this scowl."~

~"Forever?"~

~"Yes - forever. It's what I do."~
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-02-08 14:27:39 UTC
Kyoko Sakoda wrote:
I would find it hard to believe that a "relativist" (ie. a thoughtful mind) would consider two cultural constructs -- nations, imagined communities -- as being of equal value. After all, isn't that what relativism is?

Relativism is a philosophy that says there is no universal right and wrong because everyone has a different point of view. You need universal truths to argue that one society or belief system is superior, therefore some relativists argue that all people, cultures, and points of view are equal.

But some people are idiots.


I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#29 - 2012-02-08 19:08:42 UTC
As much as I hate taking the side of the Amarr, Mr. Blake has the gist of it:


Rodj Blake wrote:
I agree with the title of the speech - it's true that not all civilisations are equal.

The actual text of the speech was a pile of tripe though.


There is no inherent objective "value" to any civilization or society. Civilizations are indeed not equal, but to say a civilization has more "value" than another is ridiculous. It sounds similar to the reasoning behind the Amarr Reclaiming, honestly. Your wishes of "Federating" other peoples are particularly disturbing.

Extinguishing cultural variety using the argument that you are the best is wrong -- whether it is done by slavery or by imposed democracy. What's next, the Republic needs to be "Federated" as its tribal system is too primitive?

Mr. Nadieu, you walking a very slippery slope. I suggest taking a break to learn the meaning of "hypocrisy".

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#30 - 2012-02-08 19:27:45 UTC
Barrent Cesaille wrote:
That joke sounds fairly familiar for some reason.



I told it before, the last time some Fed-Nationalist was spewing his self-righteous, condescending bigotry on the IGS, though it was a while ago now.

Funny how these types seem to crawl out of the station sub-basements fairly regularly, eh?

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Zangorus
Live Adult Entertainment
Federal Krab Office
#31 - 2012-02-13 14:57:43 UTC
My slaves are my property!

Like my comment and recieve 1 million isk ingame!
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#32 - 2012-02-13 20:12:43 UTC
The debate about the equality of civilisations is pointless.

All people however are equal, some wish to delude themselves with foolish notions of superiority over other flesh and blood, but at the end of the day we all bleed, breathe and will bow out when our time's up.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2012-02-14 19:47:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Caellach Marellus wrote:
The debate about the equality of civilisations is pointless.

All people however are equal, some wish to delude themselves with foolish notions of superiority over other flesh and blood, but at the end of the day we all bleed, breathe and will bow out when our time's up.


I am pretty sure to know what you mean, actually refering to ideals of equal rights among people, those rights put on the social level of civilisation, but in the natural state of things, nobody is equal when it comes to genetics and talents in life, following the very basics of evolution itself. Also, equality between men in a purely scientific science does not make any sense, since we are all different.

I thought I should bring up this clarification before a misunderstanding occurs...
ChipMo
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#34 - 2012-02-14 22:08:15 UTC
Surely we have learnt by now, nationalism never ends well.

*ChipMo sighs...

Well, just don't make too much of a mess on your railroad to self destruction.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#35 - 2012-02-14 22:51:47 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
The debate about the equality of civilisations is pointless.

All people however are equal, some wish to delude themselves with foolish notions of superiority over other flesh and blood, but at the end of the day we all bleed, breathe and will bow out when our time's up.


I am pretty sure to know what you mean, actually refering to ideals of equal rights among people, those rights put on the social level of civilisation, but in the natural state of things, nobody is equal when it comes to genetics and talents in life, following the very basics of evolution itself. Also, equality between men in a purely scientific science does not make any sense, since we are all different.

I thought I should bring up this clarification before a misunderstanding occurs...


Genetics only bring forth individual traits, they don't grant anyone right of superiority.

A man may be faster than you, it does not make him your better.
A man may be physically stronger than you, it does not make him your better.
A man may be more intelligent than you, it does not make him your better.

Humans are designed to differ in traits, where some excel others struggle, yet will have their own advantages to make up the drawbacks elsewhere. We are all flawed in some way or another, and it's in that where no one can claim superiority. Individual merits do not justify overall right of determination.


Least that's the ideal behind equality, of course there are those who will use their strengths to exert their will over another, but there's plenty of discussions about them out there. As I said though, such notions of superiority are foolish.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Senn Typhos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-02-14 23:32:36 UTC
ChipMo wrote:
Surely we have learnt by now, nationalism never ends well.

*ChipMo sighs...

Well, just don't make too much of a mess on your railroad to self destruction.


Coming from an anarchist, warnings of future detriment are meaningless.
ChipMo
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#37 - 2012-02-15 13:46:02 UTC
Senn Typhos wrote:

Coming from an anarchist, warnings of future detriment are meaningless.


Oh, I wouldn't expect, or want you to take my word for it. All you need do is open your eyes and take a fresh look for yourself. When has nationalist fever ever ended in anything but disaster of one sort or another?


At least anarchism is honest.
Senn Typhos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-02-15 16:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Senn Typhos
ChipMo wrote:
Senn Typhos wrote:

Coming from an anarchist, warnings of future detriment are meaningless.


Oh, I wouldn't expect, or want you to take my word for it. All you need do is open your eyes and take a fresh look for yourself. When has nationalist fever ever ended in anything but disaster of one sort or another?


At least anarchism is honest.


Nationalism has constructed the four major nations, debates about their standings and superiority aside.

Honesty is not a quality I would assign to anarchism. In its childish mentality, it can engender a false sense of transparency, but those who subscribe to its value rarely understand their own admiration for the system they tout. In truth, it has no value.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2012-02-15 17:49:36 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
The debate about the equality of civilisations is pointless.

All people however are equal, some wish to delude themselves with foolish notions of superiority over other flesh and blood, but at the end of the day we all bleed, breathe and will bow out when our time's up.


I am pretty sure to know what you mean, actually refering to ideals of equal rights among people, those rights put on the social level of civilisation, but in the natural state of things, nobody is equal when it comes to genetics and talents in life, following the very basics of evolution itself. Also, equality between men in a purely scientific science does not make any sense, since we are all different.

I thought I should bring up this clarification before a misunderstanding occurs...


Genetics only bring forth individual traits, they don't grant anyone right of superiority.

A man may be faster than you, it does not make him your better.
A man may be physically stronger than you, it does not make him your better.
A man may be more intelligent than you, it does not make him your better.

Humans are designed to differ in traits, where some excel others struggle, yet will have their own advantages to make up the drawbacks elsewhere. We are all flawed in some way or another, and it's in that where no one can claim superiority. Individual merits do not justify overall right of determination.


Least that's the ideal behind equality, of course there are those who will use their strengths to exert their will over another, but there's plenty of discussions about them out there. As I said though, such notions of superiority are foolish.


This is what I said : you refer to human considerations put on the social level that consider the inequalities of nature irrelevant in the light of civilisation. Also, some others will disagree on this (and I am not part of them).
ChipMo
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#40 - 2012-02-15 19:13:20 UTC
Senn Typhos wrote:

Nationalism has constructed the four major nations, debates about their standings and superiority aside.


Four major nations? Are you talking about the Caldari State, Minmatar Republic, Gallente Federation & Amarr Empire?

While I'm sure they each have nationalist minorities and extreamists within them; they can hardly be credited with each races reletive success. The clues to the driving political forces of each is kind of given away in their taken names...


Sansha's Nation, now thats a shining example of a nationalist entity at its pinicle.
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