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Vagabond vs. Cynabal: what am I missing?
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#21 - 2012-02-12 19:17:13 UTC
Ryuce wrote:
Because mentioning a cheaper and highly effective ship (when flown by PODLA etc.) is a really bad thing? One might say he made a suggestion outside the box - what a bad man! By all means go full ****** here.

Also, a white knight appears etc.


No, he made a ****ing stupid suggestion that misses the entire point of the topic. When a Drake can go 3.5km/s it will be a viable alternative. Until then, anyone who thinks a Drake can do the job of a Vagabond/Cynabal is an idiot.
Gorefacer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-02-13 07:00:39 UTC
esc shk wrote:
Djakku wrote:
Drake can crush both ships, why use either? Lol


You're implying a Cynabal or a Vagabond is gonna even want to get disrupt range of a Drake and that the Drake will catch them


It happens. They are great ships to run away in though.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#23 - 2012-02-13 09:04:17 UTC
It wasn't very long ago that a vaga cost 100M while a cynabal cost 300M. At the time, the price balanced out the performance difference. This is no longer the case and for now, the vaga is largely redundant. It's only real advantage is a better resistance profile making it easier to keep alive with logi. The cynabal has greatly superior PG though, making arty the standard instead of AC's. Toss in a RF disruptor and a loki booster alt and you have absolutely no reason to come within 40km of an enemy ship.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Noisrevbus
#24 - 2012-02-13 11:32:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
It's been insinuated already, but since no one followed up to explain it ...

The one reason to use a Vagabond over a Cynabal in certain PvP-situations is resistances. Resistance is a mitigation modifier in your EHP, so it grows incremental with the use of remote transfers from Logis. When you have a certain number of Logis in your gang, the Vaga will gain a comparatively better survivability, until you do, the Cynabal have the better survivability (tank, agility etc).

10k buffer / 50% resists - 5k buffer / 75% resists = same EHP, but the latter gain twice as much from each cycle of remote rep.

All other differences are quite negliable, since even if there's agility or fitting differences resulting in slight advantages here and there, many advantages come with drawbacks while both ships are so specialist they remain in a cathegory quite of their own (such as not wanting to use your extra bandwidth for larger drones, because small drones are very role-specific and important to you).

Other forms of mitigation to your tank are: signature and speed-relatives which ushered in the ages of ahacs, oversized ab's and dualprops. Those are also reasons why typical Vagabonds has seen a decrease in popularity in favour of various dual- or 100mn ab options, that have become the "new nano" (due to profileration of HML and LR alpha combined with LR recon support). The oversized propulsion options have some additional quirks to them that would take alot of time to explain.

Mitigation can also be practical: something you can achieve by understanding of the accuracy formulae and applying that knowledge in practise through good choices of positioning and movement, or by understanding of effects on the field. These are the main reasons Vagabonds grew and remained popular in the first place.
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#25 - 2012-02-13 17:01:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Diomidis
Cynabal allows for a way more aggressive game-play:


  • Agility is noticeably better, and so is acceleration / orbit speed etc, despite the very slight speed diffs with cookie fits
  • Scan resolution is not "Frigate-class", but easily best in cruiser class.
  • Guns are bigger, and falloff deeper. Properly flown, tracking is not an issue @ range (tho arties are not my cup of tea and I never use them, I'm talking RoF here Pirate)
  • The 5th mid. Ppl fit tank in it usually. I tend not too. Most of the times you don't die cause you weren't tanky enough in a Vaga, because you are either hosed (webbed/scrammed) or you are making your way out way before your tank gives in.
  • Price - picked up a bit for the cyna, used to be like 35-40M difference. It's not much even now @ 60M, unless you are losing one or two per gaming session.
  • Drone bay - spares, versatility - f@gotry - does it all (the other day one did not die to a solo drake cause of 5x Vespa ECs...)


The larger the gang, the less impressive the Cynabal over the Vaga tho, especially if there are other faster tacklers in the mix.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Darkside 34
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#26 - 2012-02-13 17:21:42 UTC
The really hilarious part about this, is that the cynabal is very effective at killing other ships, and the vagabond is somewhat effective at killing cynabals.

I've seen many people kill cynabals solo in vagabonds even.


Each has its own place, each has its own purpose. Stop whining.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#27 - 2012-02-13 19:20:29 UTC
Darkside 34 wrote:
I've seen many people kill cynabals solo in vagabonds even.


So what? I've seen people kill Vagabonds in haulers, that just means that some people are really good at EVE and some people will die no matter how much "better" their ship is.

Whether or not a Vagabond can kill a Cynabal is irrelevant, the question is whether the Vagabond is better at killing Cynabals than a Cynabal.

Quote:
Each has its own place, each has its own purpose. Stop whining.


If there's no reason to ever fly the Vagabond instead of the Cynabal, game balance is broken. Even if you can still do reasonably well in the Vagabond if you had to fly one, why would you pick it? So far we've got two answers, and neither of them are good:

1) More people will fight you. IOW, the ship is clearly worse, to the point that people aren't going to be scared off as easily. This is hardly an advantage worth making deliberate game balance choices over.

2) The Vagabond's T2 resists work better with remote reps. Obviously this is true (and something I forgot to mention), but it's much less relevant for a solo-focused Vagabond than it would be for, say, a Drake blob.

So, other than these two minor "advantages", please explain just what "purpose" there is where you feel that the Vagabond does the job better than the Cynabal.
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