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Nerf BCs Across the Board
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Jesus Rambo
Criterion.
Pandemic Legion
#61 - 2012-02-13 07:20:04 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
Think about this:
Level 2 missions are designed to be done by T1 Cruisers
Level 3 missions are designed to be done by BCs
Therefore, by PVE DESIGN, it is compulsory to have a fixed power difference between T1 Cruisers and BCs that reflects the jump in difficulty between level 2 and level 3 missions!
Expecting T1 Cruisers and BCs to be close in power is expecting Level 2 and Level 3 missions to be almost the same difficulty, which they shouldn't be..

Expecting a Level 2 PVE boat to be as strong as a Level 3 PVE boat does not make sense at all.
Whatever is wrong with T1 cruisers being a stepping stone?
Level 2 missions are a stepping stone, nothing more than a quick transition to level 3 and level 4s.
And T1 cruisers are their assigned ship and therefore it is completely to be expected that they are transitory ships, not destination ships.


You're aware ships are intentionally not balanced based on pve performance, right?
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-02-13 08:03:01 UTC
Sprite Can wrote:
Daracon Rage wrote:
Is it just me or does it make sense for a larger, more expensive ship to be able to defeat smaller, cheaper ships?


If your playing WoW, maybe. EVE is not a game of bigger=better.


Not if you look at bigger in numbers.

Buff Cruisers and insurance for T2 hulls, before touching battlecruisers.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#63 - 2012-02-13 09:30:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Orcirk wrote:

A few comments:
1)I didn't see these 20+ people of which you speak. The number of guys on grid at any one time seemed to be closer to 4.
...
3)I didn't actually see anything in that video that shows how much better AFs are than BCs. The only actual fight (as in not a gank where you outnumber the guys you're shooting) was in fairly similar shipclases, where your side undoubtedly had t3 gang bonuses and pirate implants backing you up.


A few comments:
- Maybe you should try watching local and the overview at the end of the video then? They are there. Sometimes its best not to engage massive fleets with tons of blackbirds with a close range blaster ship. ;-)
- Most gangs rolling through Amamake have their own bonuses. They had gang links in fights 3 and 4 for example.
- The Jag fight at the beginning was actually before the AF boost. ;-) [Ed: It may have even been pre-Hybrid boost. Definitely the Jag was considered far superior to any blaster ship then.]
- By the time the remainder of my fleet showed up, the Brutix was at half armor. Furthermore, I hear Kestrels and Firetails are totally BC equivalent. Roll
- I don't know if you noticed, but most of my tank actually derives from sig and transversal tanking. Furthermore, go take a good look at how hard five ships were hitting me and how often I had to run that shield booster. I had that... bonuses or no bonuses... implants or no implants.

Quote:

2)That video was painful to watch, please choose some better music. No, you don't need to use dubstep, but using green day and linkin park instead is like chopping your legs off instead of wearing the ugly pants your in-laws got you.


Seriously, someone bitches whether you put Johnny Cash, Dubstep, Greenday, or Eminem in your video. I know - I've done them all. So really, QQ, QQ, QQ. HTFU, Get the **** over it, you know where the mute button is, etc etc etc.

Quote:

Not that I'm saying AFs are bad, the buffs they got were great, but it doesn't really change the fact that tier 2 BCs are a tad broken. It's not often that I find myself agreeing, word for word, with something CCP says, but holy crap did Ytterbium hit the nail on the head. The BCs as they stand are too cost effective, have too large an impact on how HACs and CSs perform, and present way too large a performance jump from t1 cruisers for such a small skill jump.


Comments:
- T1 cruisers suck so hard on their own merit. IMO the performance jump from T1 cruisers to T1 BCs has literally **** all to do with anything. Talk about a total non-issue.
- Certain CSs so far outclass T1 BCs its not funny. Others... fall lackluster. One might argue its a problem with specific ships...
- I'm not sure why you think that HACs should be competing for the same roles that BCs do. That seems pretty dubious.
- BCs being "too cost effective" is .... dubious. They're certainly the bread and butter of PVP, and frankly I'm kinda fond of them being that way. Not that I fly them very often anymore.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-02-13 10:01:51 UTC
Jesus Rambo wrote:
You're aware ships are intentionally not balanced based on pve performance, right?


Tell that to the 1000s of new players just going from level 2 in Cruisers to level 3 in BCs.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Bruce Kemp
Best Kept Dunked
#65 - 2012-02-13 10:02:56 UTC
Sprite Can wrote:
As it is now and has been for quite some time, Battlecruisers completely obsolete Cruisers and to a certain extent almost every ship class below them. They offer the best balance of tank, gank, mobility and cost by a wide margin. The Drake is the biggest culprit, followed by the Hurricane, but the issue extends to the entirety of the ship class. BCs should function more like Destroyers do in relation to Frigates.


0/10

Hunting BC in cruisers is great fun, if you nerfed BC then cruisers/AF would be overpowered.
Death Toll007
Perkone
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-02-13 11:11:31 UTC
OP: Drake/Cane haters are going to hate.

NOOBS: Are the first to scream for the nerf bat.

VETERANS: Are the first to look at the ships strengths, and fit to that role rather than Battleclinic.

HATERS: Will whine no matter what and should be ignored.

EvE: Everyone Versus Everyone (you will always find a loss in your stack of victories, learn from them rather than whine about them)

DRAKE
There is nothing wrong with current drake... it sacrafices DPS for tank. FC's recognize in numbers drakes are awesome because it takes time to kill them... time works in the Drake's favor.

Now let's hope the drake gets the damage bonus they are talking about. So my drake goes from 80-90ehp down to 60-70EHP with a 35% increase in DPS (due to RoF and Damage mod)... that's a 23% reduction in EHP for 35% increase in DPS... you thought drake fleets were annoying before?!?

For the masses demanding the change to the drake, I have news for you, the CSM meeting notes changes will make them more effective and more often fielded.

Hurricane
It is winmatar... everyone will hate on it because of this. However, they are not winmatar until the player is about 40-60mil sp and can utilize all weapon systems, navigation, and defense systems necessary to fly them properly. Because of all the split Bonuses, experienced players tend to field them more than noobs... comparing the Veteran in Cane to a Noob in a Drake is fail.

Numbers
Any FC going on a roam will take BC's of BS's for many reasons that have not yet been discussed. Primarily roams are a jaunt into the unknown, and require speed, and flexibility. A BC exemplifies the Jack of all trades mentality, but as with any JOAT is a master of none. If they outnumber you, bad idea to engage, if you have equal numbers and an actual fleet composition instead of a blob you will win.

T1 Cruisers
They need a buff. Mostly to Sig Radius, Speed, and slot layout. However many vets will tell you their favorite hulls are cruisers. Among them they praise the rupture... winmatar with split bonuses able to be effectively flown by vets... Not for noobs.

Tier 1 BC's
Have you looked at the Ferox since the hybrid buff??? Similar tank to drake, more DPS, and just vicious now. On top of being one of my personal favorites as far as aesthetics, she's a new up and comer.

Tier 3 BC's
You can get 40k EHP on them with a 150-180 sig radius, about 50-60 more than an AHAC, with the DPS of a BS. Why FC's have not done Blaster Talos blobs, or nano rail nagas yet is beyond me. Yes tracking sux, but you can put a Target Painter on each ship in the fleet, and look at target to align your ship in the direction of their travel and it gets ugly quick.

Overall impression, the game is excellently balanced at this time, and the tweaks they are suggesting will only enhance it.

-DT
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#67 - 2012-02-13 11:52:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
I have 3 things wrong with tier 2 battlecruisers :

1/ The Hurricane have WAY too much fitting. Dual neutralizers on top of everything and still plenty to spare. You can fit the Hurricane with a 1600mm plate and FULL T2 fit nothing spared except only using 220mm AC's and STILL have plenty spare powergrid and cpu. You can ALSO fit the Hurricane in a FULL T2 shield setup with lowslots full of damage mods in combination with 425mm AC's and dual energy neutralizers and yet again end up with plnety spare powergrid and cpu.
You don't have to make any choice for the Hurricane as you can fit it pretty much as you want. At the same time AC's have a superior tracking and damage projection with the 2 utility slots on a fast/agile ship making it super versatile agaisnt anything from frigates to battleships.

2/ The Drake is very balanced, however trading tank for more dps is fine. It does have the ability to absorb a lot of damage taking the pace out of pvp.

3/ Having more slots, more hitpoint, way more dps and more fitting than needed even for low skilled players makes the tier 2 battlecruisers totally obsolete the tier 1. It is okay to be a little better but tier 1 battlecruisers should still be viable perhaps by tanking better and having slithly less dps and easily fitting a warfare link.

PS. I just took a look at the post above and death, you are wrong on many, many occasions...
Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#68 - 2012-02-13 12:51:38 UTC
One thing that i must agree with is that T1 cruisers are completely useless/unused. (mby Xcept rupture).
They definitely need some kind of buff or refocus. (most of all T1 "logi" cruisers are joke)
Battlecruisers have basicaly same requirements and are better in every way making T1 cruisers obsolete.
Sad but true...
Orcirk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-02-13 15:54:04 UTC
Glad I remembered to copy this post before hitting the post button, forums tried to eat my reply Sad
:CCP excellence:
Liang Nuren wrote:

A few comments:
- Maybe you should try watching local and the overview at the end of the video then? They are there. Sometimes its best not to engage massive fleets with tons of blackbirds with a close range blaster ship. ;-)
- Most gangs rolling through Amamake have their own bonuses. They had gang links in fights 3 and 4 for example.
- The Jag fight at the beginning was actually before the AF boost. ;-) [Ed: It may have even been pre-Hybrid boost. Definitely the Jag was considered far superior to any blaster ship then.]
- By the time the remainder of my fleet showed up, the Brutix was at half armor. Furthermore, I hear Kestrels and Firetails are totally BC equivalent. Roll
- I don't know if you noticed, but most of my tank actually derives from sig and transversal tanking. Furthermore, go take a good look at how hard five ships were hitting me and how often I had to run that shield booster. I had that... bonuses or no bonuses... implants or no implants.

-It's intentionally misleading to list people who are only in local as being part of the fight. If I jump into a system where some massive fleet is forming and gank their scout, would it really be reasonable for me to claim that the fight was 1000 vs 1?
-Proof? What percentage are you using to define "most"?
-The harpy has always been a highly underrated ship, as you of all people must know. But even before the blaster buffs, small blasters were considered fairly well balanced. What's more is that the jag has always been very lackluster. It's a ship with a huge buffer and not a whole lot else, frankly had it been 2 jags vs just you you STILL should have won, or at least chased one of them off while ganking the other.
-BC equivalent? You had drake/harpy/harpy/kestrel vs brutix/cane. If a single cane was the equivalent of 2 AFs (and a frig, but we won't count that) you'd never see anyone flying AFs. Also the brutix is a rather poor ship to begin with, claiming that your ganglinked, pirate implanted AF was able to take one on and win isn't really that impressive.
-I had noticed. It's a good thing that things like speed and signature radius can't be ganglinked or that statement would seem rather silly.
Liang Nuren wrote:

Seriously, someone bitches whether you put Johnny Cash, Dubstep, Greenday, or Eminem in your video. I know - I've done them all. So really, QQ, QQ, QQ. HTFU, Get the **** over it, you know where the mute button is, etc etc etc.
Nothing wrong with Jhonny cash tbh, but if you here music with lyrics like:
"My shadow's the only one that walks beside me
My shallow heart's the only thing that's beating
Sometimes I wish someone out there will find me
'til then I walk alone"
And your first though is MY GOD THIS MUSIC SPEAKS TO ME!
You automatically forfeit your rights to tell other people to HTFU.
Also your testicles.
Just sayin.


Liang Nuren wrote:

- Certain CSs so far outclass T1 BCs its not funny. Others... fall lackluster. One might argue its a problem with specific ships...
You mean like the drake?Big smile

Liang Nuren wrote:

- I'm not sure why you think that HACs should be competing for the same roles that BCs do. That seems pretty dubious.
Given that HACs were around first, I'd say it's the BCs (specifically tier 2 and now 3 as well) whose roles are not what they should be. The fact that the terms nano and sniper are now more often attributed to BCs than HACs is a huge problem.
Liang Nuren wrote:

- BCs being "too cost effective" is .... dubious. They're certainly the bread and butter of PVP, and frankly I'm kinda fond of them being that way. Not that I fly them very often anymore.

They're the bread and butter of pvp because they perform MUCH better than pretty much any other ship in the game once cost and skill training are factored in. They perform nearly as well as other, more expensive, more specialized ships at their supposed roles. It's like the problems that plagued larger blaster ships. You compare them to amarr ships, and realize that in their own niche, they just barely outperformed them, but as soon as you stepped out of that niche the difference was staggering. There really SHOULDN'T be a "bread and butter of pvp". The idea itself is awful. Different ships should excel at different roles, and for the few that ARE jack of all trade ships, they should perform MUCH worse then ships specifically designed for certain roles, when they DO compete.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#70 - 2012-02-13 17:06:12 UTC
Orcirk wrote:

-It's intentionally misleading to list people who are only in local as being part of the fight. If I jump into a system where some massive fleet is forming and gank their scout, would it really be reasonable for me to claim that the fight was 1000 vs 1?


That's stretching the analogy.

Quote:

-Proof? What percentage are you using to define "most"?


Hmmm, I'd say at least 60% of the opposing gangs that roll through Amamake have gang links. My proof is D-Scan.

Quote:

-The harpy has always been a highly underrated ship, as you of all people must know. But even before the blaster buffs, small blasters were considered fairly well balanced. What's more is that the jag has always been very lackluster. It's a ship with a huge buffer and not a whole lot else, frankly had it been 2 jags vs just you you STILL should have won, or at least chased one of them off while ganking the other.


I don't think anyone else in the game agreed with you. In fact, claiming this really undermines your later positions.

Quote:

-BC equivalent? You had drake/harpy/harpy/kestrel vs brutix/cane. If a single cane was the equivalent of 2 AFs (and a frig, but we won't count that) you'd never see anyone flying AFs. Also the brutix is a rather poor ship to begin with, claiming that your ganglinked, pirate implanted AF was able to take one on and win isn't really that impressive.


The funny thing about it is that if the fight had gone the other way you'd (pl) be telling me of course we all died to a pair of battlecruisers. In fact, I've even tested the water on this - repeatedly - by flaunting several of my losses.

Quote:
-I had noticed. It's a good thing that things like speed and signature radius can't be ganglinked or that statement would seem rather silly.


I don't think you fly frigs if you think the implants (or even booster) have anything to do with it. Seriously - its completely possible to get under pretty much any BCs guns and stay there - with or without implants. Besides, you

I'd continue on but frankly its telling me to stop quoting. Bleh.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#71 - 2012-02-13 17:16:55 UTC
I have a question about that fight.

Why was the Raven wasting Cruise Missiles on your Harpy when their was a Hurricane on grid just meters away?
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#72 - 2012-02-13 17:22:59 UTC
you have never flown in a proper cruiser fleet. 9 times out of ten even if you loose the battle you've still done far more in damages then they did to you.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#73 - 2012-02-13 17:40:12 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I have a question about that fight.

Why was the Raven wasting Cruise Missiles on your Harpy when their was a Hurricane on grid just meters away?


You know, I really don't know. During the actual fight (at least until Ivy spiked the hell out of local), we thought it was just an Ivy alt of one of the guys already in the fight. He was rocking at least 2 heavy neuts and was really tearing the rest of the fleet up with them. Once local spiked so hard ... I guess its that I was flashy and the Cane wasn't? Maybe its that I was obviously the primary for all the other guys?

What I can tell you is that the fleet took a look at what they had in the belt and came back in Tier 3 BCs. I guess we had about 4 Tier 3s and a BC or two. They ran and we looted the field.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#74 - 2012-02-13 17:54:25 UTC
Orcirk wrote:

Liang Nuren wrote:

- Certain CSs so far outclass T1 BCs its not funny. Others... fall lackluster. One might argue its a problem with specific ships...
You mean like the drake?Big smile


No, like the Nighthawk. Even if we deleted the Tier 2 BCs from the game the Nighthawk still wouldn't really be worth flying.

Quote:

Liang Nuren wrote:

- I'm not sure why you think that HACs should be competing for the same roles that BCs do. That seems pretty dubious.
Given that HACs were around first, I'd say it's the BCs (specifically tier 2 and now 3 as well) whose roles are not what they should be. The fact that the terms nano and sniper are now more often attributed to BCs than HACs is a huge problem.


You misunderstood me. I said that HACs and BCs shouldn't be competing for the same role - and for the most part they don't. In fact, most of the time when a BC clearly overpowers a HAC its because of a deficiency in the HAC in the first place.


Quote:

They're the bread and butter of pvp because they perform MUCH better than pretty much any other ship in the game once cost and skill training are factored in. They perform nearly as well as other, more expensive, more specialized ships at their supposed roles. It's like the problems that plagued larger blaster ships. You compare them to amarr ships, and realize that in their own niche, they just barely outperformed them, but as soon as you stepped out of that niche the difference was staggering. There really SHOULDN'T be a "bread and butter of pvp". The idea itself is awful. Different ships should excel at different roles, and for the few that ARE jack of all trade ships, they should perform MUCH worse then ships specifically designed for certain roles, when they DO compete.


There is always a ship of the line. There will always be a bread and butter ship class. Deal with it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Firh
Duct Solutions
#75 - 2012-02-13 20:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Firh
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sprite Can wrote:
@Zhilia Mann: I'm even sure how to acknowledge that.

@Lyrrashae: Would you like to give some reasons as to why I might be incorrect, rather than (poorly) attempting to insult me?


They say a picture says a thousand words. I figure a video ought to say more, so here's a video of me raping BCs in AFs: https://vimeo.com/35642474

-Liang


In those fights every BC you engage is either outnumbered or in a fleet with non-battlecruisers versus an opposing fleet of a similar or greater size. Your own fleets in that video aren't even AF ones so there's no point at all to linking that video.

In any case, BCs in general offer a lot of bang for the buck but so did most tier 1 Battleships prior to the insurance change yet people didn't fly those very often. The popularity of BCs is due to both their good balance between mobility and power as well as their enticing price point. They're cheap, fast enough to roam with and powerful enough to give you a wide selection of targets, something which is important seeing how hard it can be to get a fight these days.

I don't see why you'd want to nerf BCs. They're a nice tool you can use to enjoy PvP in a relatively cost-efficient way. PvP should be less costly in fact, less cost = more pew pew = more fun. What's the point of roaming around in faction and t2 ships not finding anything you dare to engage because you can't afford to lose more than a few ships?
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-02-13 20:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
Firh wrote:
I don't see why you'd want to nerf BCs. They're a nice tool you can use to enjoy PvP in a relatively cost-efficient way. PvP should be less costly in fact, less cost = more pew pew = more fun. What's the point of roaming around in faction and t2 ships not finding anything you dare to engage because you can't afford to lose more than a few ships?


I agree with this. Especially the underlined.
Somehow, the costs of PVP keep rising and rising to ridiculous levels with T2 and T3, Faction and Deadspace mods, Tech2 rigs, little to no insurance for T2 and T3, and increased clone costs with rising SP, and even skill penalties with T3!

EVE PVP is taking a wrong turn into becoming some sort of extreme luxury only for a small segment of the ISK rich.
There are already many many challenges to people getting fights.
To pile on cost after cost on PVPers and increase the cost year after year is directly inhibiting PVP activity.

I can understand devs trying to absorb the ISK of the extremely rich.
However, in so doing, they are harming the PVP activity of the non-wealthy PVPers!

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#77 - 2012-02-13 20:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Darthewok wrote:

EVE PVP is taking a wrong turn into becoming some sort of extreme luxury only for a small segment of the ISK rich.


I can't agree with that. AFs were recently boosted to utterly ridiculous levels and they're quite cheap indeed. I think thant te problem is that people assume they have to be rocking a 3B ISK Tengu to compete in PVP... when in reality you can compete with T1 frigs if you really want to.

Consider: http://youtu.be/ZqFGgw7OW1g

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Firh
Duct Solutions
#78 - 2012-02-13 21:05:19 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Darthewok wrote:

EVE PVP is taking a wrong turn into becoming some sort of extreme luxury only for a small segment of the ISK rich.


I can't agree with that. AFs were recently boosted to utterly ridiculous levels and they're quite cheap indeed. I think thant te problem is that people assume they have to be rocking a 3B ISK Tengu to compete in PVP... when in reality you can compete with T1 frigs if you really want to.

Consider: http://youtu.be/ZqFGgw7OW1g

-Liang

They're not that cheap, certainly not after the patch anyway.

Whilst I'm not knocking on AF's I do think you have a great overconfidence in their ability and they're certainly not the salvation for the budget PvP'er. It's quite common even to fit faction and deadspace modules to get what's perceived as satisfactory EFT numbers out of them.

A more interesting change for the porpers out there is the AF changes. The Thrasher has become a real beast, something many overconfident AF pilots are sure to find out in an unfortunate manner sooner or later.

Alas, the new Destroyers is one of the few if not only recent additions to the porper-pvper's arsenal.
Prince Kobol
#79 - 2012-02-13 21:07:47 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sprite Can wrote:
@Zhilia Mann: I'm even sure how to acknowledge that.

@Lyrrashae: Would you like to give some reasons as to why I might be incorrect, rather than (poorly) attempting to insult me?


They say a picture says a thousand words. I figure a video ought to say more, so here's a video of me raping BCs in AFs: https://vimeo.com/35642474

-Liang


That was a great video, ever though about doing a voice over so so its more like a teaching video
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#80 - 2012-02-13 21:09:57 UTC
Firh wrote:

They're not that cheap, certainly not after the patch anyway.

Whilst I'm not knocking on AF's I do think you have a great overconfidence in their ability and they're certainly not the salvation for the budget PvP'er. It's quite common even to fit faction and deadspace modules to get what's perceived as satisfactory EFT numbers out of them.

A more interesting change for the porpers out there is the AF changes. The Thrasher has become a real beast, something many overconfident AF pilots are sure to find out in an unfortunate manner sooner or later.

Alas, the new Destroyers is one of the few if not only recent additions to the porper-pvper's arsenal.


AFs are still arguably not expensive in absolute terms, but certainly not on the scale that was being talked about (500-800M+ for a T3 for example). Furthermore, AFs have significantly more tank and generally shred Destroyers. Even Thrashers.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.