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Time Dilation Sux

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Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#61 - 2012-02-12 02:34:02 UTC
Professor Alphane wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Professor Alphane wrote:
Or you know they could have addressed the fundamentals and made sure that large fleet fights aren't detremantal in any way to other players and done it properly IMO.


Curious how you would address the problem of increasing scale.

Let's say your answer is more nodes to achieve less systems per node:

Without TiDi the nodes crash anyway under the same load, making TiDi a necessary component of this method of fix.

Let's say your answer is 64 bit server codebase:

OK we bring 6.8k people to a future fight and without TiDi the node crashes anyway.

Let's say your answer is to disincentivize the formation of coalitions:

OK now more fleet fights happen more often, making TiDi a necessity as it becomes probable that there will be saturation on multiple nodes instead of just one (or in extreme cases two).

So I'm still wondering how TiDi is not a component of any valid fix you may come up with.

I am, along with computer scientists everywhere, on pins and needles awaiting your response to the dilemmas created by increasing scale.


You are ???

How about monotiring your nodes properly and reassigning to more robust structures under stress


You mean like they already do? Seriously, reinforced nodes (and the software to use them) have been a reality for years.

The simple fact is this: Without TiDi even a reinforced node is in serious trouble when module queues exceed the threshold at which the server can process them.

Meaning that no matter how robust a node is, that node has a breaking point. It's therefore only a matter of time before it is achieved by players. TiDi drastically changes that threshold in favor of the server.

It's necessary in any solution. It had to happen. HTFU.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#62 - 2012-02-12 02:41:26 UTC
Quebber wrote:
Those of us with balls who remember the IT fights and the NC/DRF fights, remember loading in to o2o and it taking 40+ mins for grid to load... TD is an amazing change. 1600+ people in OP9Z-I and it was possible to fight, thanks CCP


I was there in o2o. Confirming it took 10-20 minutes to lock titans. Another 10-20 for weapons to fire. Oops. ECM Burst. Start over. It got so bad that FCs called for subcaps to logoff in the hopes of reducing lag because we weren't getting anything done.

Even an hour after the fight was over you still couldn't log back in. Black screen.

TiDi is far and above the best thing CCP has done since I started this game 3 years ago.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#63 - 2012-02-12 02:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor Alphane
Darth Gustav wrote:
Professor Alphane wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Professor Alphane wrote:
Or you know they could have addressed the fundamentals and made sure that large fleet fights aren't detremantal in any way to other players and done it properly IMO.


Curious how you would address the problem of increasing scale.

Let's say your answer is more nodes to achieve less systems per node:

Without TiDi the nodes crash anyway under the same load, making TiDi a necessary component of this method of fix.

Let's say your answer is 64 bit server codebase:

OK we bring 6.8k people to a future fight and without TiDi the node crashes anyway.

Let's say your answer is to disincentivize the formation of coalitions:

OK now more fleet fights happen more often, making TiDi a necessity as it becomes probable that there will be saturation on multiple nodes instead of just one (or in extreme cases two).

So I'm still wondering how TiDi is not a component of any valid fix you may come up with.

I am, along with computer scientists everywhere, on pins and needles awaiting your response to the dilemmas created by increasing scale.


You are ???

How about monotiring your nodes properly and reassigning to more robust structures under stress


You mean like they already do? Seriously, reinforced nodes (and the software to use them) have been a reality for years.

The simple fact is this: Without TiDi even a reinforced node is in serious trouble when module queues exceed the threshold at which the server can process them.

Meaning that no matter how robust a node is, that node has a breaking point. It's therefore only a matter of time before it is achieved by players. TiDi drastically changes that threshold in favor of the server.

It's necessary in any solution. It had to happen. HTFU.



Nodes only fail because they do not have enough hardware assigned to them as far as I understand it

/edit or your attempting to do too much with your hardware. Also this doesn't change the arguement why should CCP not reassign uninvloved sytems from dilating nodes?

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Berke Negri
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-02-12 02:57:18 UTC
don't you guys understand the true INJUSTICE here of noted space captain, professor alphane, having to wait a few extra seconds for his modules to cycle while ratting so nearly 2,000 players could enjoy a simultaneous fleet fight in the same system with no lag
Bel Amar
Rules of Acquisition
#65 - 2012-02-12 03:03:18 UTC
Berke Negri wrote:
so nearly 2,000 players could enjoy a simultaneous fleet fight in the same system with no lag


Same node, not same system...
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#66 - 2012-02-12 03:12:24 UTC
Berke Negri wrote:
don't you guys understand the true INJUSTICE here of noted space captain, professor alphane, having to wait a few extra seconds for his modules to cycle while ratting so nearly 2,000 players could enjoy a simultaneous fleet fight in the same system with no lag



Sloppy development is sloppy development as I see it, as stated earlier creating 'quick fix' and 'that'll do it, sort of..' programming usually comes round to bite your ass in the long run.

I've no objection's to you having your lolz, it's just one of my personal bug bears , CCP's slapdash approach to development while heavily investing in other projects that may never make $1.

Imagine what they could do if they didn't waste all there time and effort on projects that may never get of the ground and actually invested in solving the problems with EVE and developing new and exciting things for us to do.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#67 - 2012-02-12 03:41:32 UTC
Berke Negri wrote:
don't you guys understand the true INJUSTICE here of noted space captain, professor alphane, having to wait a few extra seconds for his modules to cycle while ratting so nearly 2,000 players could enjoy a simultaneous fleet fight in the same system with no lag


Professor:

Have some injustice with your injustice.

That way you can suffer while you suffer and cry while you cry.

I hope you keep posting this stuff.

How easy it must be to cry, "fix it!" How much harder to think of something that isn't idiotic to fix it.

I'm sure transitioning an entire system's worth of data across nodes, basically system-wide simultaneous session changes, would be a great solution during instances of extreme server lag! Cry

TiDi is necessary for any future combat against fleet fight lag.

No TiDi -> Cascade failure.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#68 - 2012-02-12 03:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor Alphane
Darth Gustav wrote:

I'm sure transitioning an entire system's worth of data across nodes, basically system-wide simultaneous session changes, would be a great solution during instances of extreme server lag! Cry

Well maybe you could try session changing before you have maxed out your node, and one slight glitch in another system would be better than however long dilated

TiDi is necessary for any future combat against fleet fight lag.

No TiDi -> Cascade failure.



Keep telling yourself that if you like, I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2012-02-12 03:58:33 UTC
Professor Alphane wrote:

Keep telling yourself that if you like, I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry

beliefs don't have to be based on facts, as you've amply shown 'professor'.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#70 - 2012-02-12 03:59:40 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Professor Alphane wrote:

Keep telling yourself that if you like, I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry

beliefs don't have to be based on facts, as you've amply shown 'professor'.



Please quote what I have said that isn't factual

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2012-02-12 04:04:45 UTC
I just did.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#72 - 2012-02-12 04:07:38 UTC
Quote:
I don't believe this is the BEST solution implemented in the BEST way it can be sorry


If you are reffering to that statement you are in fact wrong I do believe that .... FACT

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#73 - 2012-02-12 04:41:38 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
I was just a part of a fight that had 1700 people in local. The node was NOT reinforced and I had 10-15 second module lag. Things worked and the game did not break.


I've been playing this game since 2006. I've experienced the worst CCP code has to bring and this was the most amazing god damn thing ever.

The game worked. The game simply worked.


This post absolutely ******* amazes me. Why? Because when lag was at its worst, and I would say "What do you expect from a fight with so many people"? And I was told over and over and over that this lag did not happen prior to Apocrypha in fights just as large.

Eve players say whatever the **** they want whenever the **** they want and then change the story whenever the **** they see fit.


internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#74 - 2012-02-12 04:48:41 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
I was just a part of a fight that had 1700 people in local. The node was NOT reinforced and I had 10-15 second module lag. Things worked and the game did not break.


I've been playing this game since 2006. I've experienced the worst CCP code has to bring and this was the most amazing god damn thing ever.

The game worked. The game simply worked.


This post absolutely ******* amazes me. Why? Because when lag was at its worst, and I would say "What do you expect from a fight with so many people"? And I was told over and over and over that this lag did not happen prior to Apocrypha in fights just as large.

Eve players say whatever the **** they want whenever the **** they want and then change the story whenever the **** they see fit.




Confirming that straw man is still straw man.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#75 - 2012-02-12 04:54:58 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
I was just a part of a fight that had 1700 people in local. The node was NOT reinforced and I had 10-15 second module lag. Things worked and the game did not break.


I've been playing this game since 2006. I've experienced the worst CCP code has to bring and this was the most amazing god damn thing ever.

The game worked. The game simply worked.


This post absolutely ******* amazes me. Why? Because when lag was at its worst, and I would say "What do you expect from a fight with so many people"? And I was told over and over and over that this lag did not happen prior to Apocrypha in fights just as large.

Eve players say whatever the **** they want whenever the **** they want and then change the story whenever the **** they see fit.




Confirming that straw man is still straw man.


I am not misrepresenting his position whatsoever. If the server was not lagging pre Apocryoha, then this time dilation cannot possible be "the most amazing god damn thing ever." If the server was lagging then, then everyone who said it wasn't is full of ****.

Two conditions in an argument can be true, but not 2 opposite conditions.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#76 - 2012-02-12 04:57:36 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
I was just a part of a fight that had 1700 people in local. The node was NOT reinforced and I had 10-15 second module lag. Things worked and the game did not break.


I've been playing this game since 2006. I've experienced the worst CCP code has to bring and this was the most amazing god damn thing ever.

The game worked. The game simply worked.


This post absolutely ******* amazes me. Why? Because when lag was at its worst, and I would say "What do you expect from a fight with so many people"? And I was told over and over and over that this lag did not happen prior to Apocrypha in fights just as large.

Eve players say whatever the **** they want whenever the **** they want and then change the story whenever the **** they see fit.




Confirming that straw man is still straw man.


I am not misrepresenting his position whatsoever. If the server was not lagging pre Apocryoha, then this time dilation cannot possible be "the most amazing god damn thing ever." If the server was lagging then, then everyone who said it wasn't is full of ****.

Two conditions in an argument can be true, but not 2 opposite conditions.


You do misrepresent what he is saying. He is not saying there was no lag pre-apocrypha. Therefore this is a straw man argument. Nowhere in his statement does it say there was no lag pre-apocrypha. You admitted that is some **** you heard some other ******* players say at some point, allegedly, in your past experience.

Straw man is sill straw man.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2012-02-12 05:07:22 UTC
Oh no, you need to move a couple systems over, what a tragedy, whatever are you to do!
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#78 - 2012-02-12 05:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Quote:
He is not saying there was no lag pre-apocrypha.


He is saying that there was in fact lag.

I said "Eve players" in reply to Vile rat, not "you".

The people that changed their story are the ones absent from this thread, no longer saying the game was lag free in 2008 and before.

Maybe they were all just bitter vets who emoragequit?

And on the same note, he never came to my defense when people said the game didn't lag then. Neither did you.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2012-02-12 05:11:04 UTC
Solinuas wrote:
Oh no, you need to move a couple systems over, what a tragedy, whatever are you to do!

drone renters rent on a system-specific basis ;_;
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2012-02-12 05:17:58 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
drone renters rent on a system-specific basis ;_;


In that case, they deserve it anyway :P