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Valve and Blizzard to battle in court for DotA!

Author
NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#1 - 2012-02-10 14:57:47 UTC
News details here and there.

It is an rather interesting case. There are brief history mentioned in those links, so I recommend reading it.

TL;DR version?

DotA was a very popular map in Warcraft III. Even I was part of that DotA community for years.
Blizzard did not (even now) own the name of the game. They had the chance, but didnt.
Valve hires the guy that maintains the mod, giving him all the tools and staff for DoTA2, which blizzard didnt take advantage of years before.
Year and half ago, Blizzard just simply call "foul" (you will find it in kotaku link) but didnt do anything.
Valve wants to trademark the name.
Blizzard is trying to block the name trademark, not block the game.

I am rather mixed, but I am siding with Valve with this. Blizzard had seven years to market an potential product, they didnt. There were many hurdles that WC3 mechanics dont work well for the DotA map. Which is why you see league of Legends and Heros of Newerth (and few other dota style game spin offs) to have their own game engine without ANY hurdles. The guy that manage the mod, Icefrog did alot to get throug the hurdles. I remember there were some patches of WC3 bugs out DotA and the team had to fix or get rid of some items that can cause crashes. There were times I felt that blizzard dont care about the dota community. There were also times I felt that blizzard just pulls out the middle finger at the community.

Then Valve hires the guy, giving him all the neccesary tools to make the game better. It was an exciting moment. A mod map is now having its stand alone game that can make the experience better. I did play HoN, similar mechanics, but wasnt really my cup of tea. LoL? Good and easy game for anyone to play, but entirely different game mechanics.

DotA was made by the community, not by blizzard. I was actually suprised that Valve chose the name DotA 2. Not aure why Valve allowed it, but maybe Icefrog wanted to flick blizzard back for all the troubles :-)
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#2 - 2012-02-10 15:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: 2bhammered
Hmm made a long post but forum ate it X

Anyway, I guess I will make my point very brief instead. Blizzard does have more right to the name than Valve does or even the guys who made DOTA, that is the life of a modder and anyone making a mod should remember that you use their game on their terms, life. Valve are crying for nothing, they are one of the most recognizable and rich developers in the world, n1 publisher for PC games and own STEAM. They have the funds and ability to change name on any title they make and still sell it and create brand recognition. So instead of wasting everybody's time, just come up with a new name and move on.

Also Valve making a sequel to a game that was a mod on Warcraft 3, is like me making a sequel to GTA 4 because I made a mod for it. Also they only have one guy who made DOTA in the team right? The other main developer helped form a company and made League of Legends and the other guys are elsewhere yes? Whatever, Valve is the ***** in this fight, funny I never thought I'd see the day when Activision have 2 lawsuits on their hands I would end up agreeing with both and hoping they win Lol

EDIT; Since I might as well, add what the forum ate here we go-

What has Valve done over the last 2 decades? They made Half Life 1 and Half Life 2 resulting in source engine and Steam digital distribution service, great and I respect them for that. What games have they made and sold over the years besides a wooping 2 titles? let's see, counter strike=mod left 4 dead=mod teamfortress 2=mod portal=mod and now DOTA 2=mod etc.

They wait for someone to make something great using their tools then swoop in, trademark then make all the gains of it.

What would happen if a mod maker refuse to "get" an internship at Valve for good publicity and release his ownership to trademark? Guess what, Valve destroys him, life but exactly the same thing Blizzard is doing now, except they are on the other side of the table because Warcraft 3 was not a Valve game and they are suing Valve, not some poor mod-maker.
NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#3 - 2012-02-10 16:32:47 UTC
You made a great point that valve did make just two games on their own. But you also point out how much they support the community for their mods. True they are profitting off the good minds of the modding community, especially when they are free mods. But at least they are good products yes? Not half assed compared to EA with their complete non-mod based games.

Never thought of it before, but you made me realize that steam is mostly a modding community gaming company rather than just a game company. Though I am curious, I thought they made L4D, not based on a mod.
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#4 - 2012-02-10 16:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: 2bhammered
NeoShocker wrote:
You made a great point that valve did make just two games on their own. But you also point out how much they support the community for their mods. True they are profitting off the good minds of the modding community, especially when they are free mods. But at least they are good products yes? Not half assed compared to EA with their complete non-mod based games.

Never thought of it before, but you made me realize that steam is mostly a modding community gaming company rather than just a game company. Though I am curious, I thought they made L4D, not based on a mod.



Sorry Left 4 Dead was based on the idea of a mod (zombie mod for CS) but made a game by Turtle Rock Studios, Valve bought the company before release after successful initial feedback and help of a big article by PC Gamer. Now they own it and made huge profits, I wondered what happened to the guys who made it?

I hate EA with a passion so no they are not as bad, but in many ways I think they are worse than Blizzard. I use to be thinking they were perfect and all nice and stuff but the more time has passed and the more I have seen how they do business the worse they seem to be. But I still like them, I use Steam but Blizzard to me still makes more games, Valve to me has only ever done 1FPS, updated it and had other people make their success for them, both with their engine, other games and Steams success thanks to third party.

But that's besides the point, when it comes to your OP and what it is about, I agree with Blizzard and I think Valve has gone too far in benefiting of other peoples work this time. It is enough that they can take their communities work, now they want to buy every other games successful mods and IP's?
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#5 - 2012-02-10 17:53:11 UTC  |  Edited by: 2bhammered
"What you fail to understand is that Blizzard is NOT trying to trademark DotA, DOTA or Defense of the Ancients. They are simply protecting it as a community entity.

They are well aware that DotA is a community created success and don’t feel that trademarking it is a fair thing to do."

"Blizzard provided mod tools, they did patches seven years after the release of Warcraft III: TFT to increase the size of the custom maps specifically aimed to let DotA grow."


Wow, what a twist?! Is Blizzard trying to protect a free mod for their game to protect the community that made it because if DOTA gets trademarked then DOTA Mod is illegal to play on Warcraft 3! woah, did Valve just **** me off? and did Blizzard just try to look out for gamers??

Stay tuned!
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-02-10 18:06:57 UTC
Rights go to the inventor... Unless they work for a company. (In which case their name still goes on it, but the company owns the rights.)

Because it was a MOD, and never was WC3 brings you DOTA or blizzard DOTA or WC3 dota. blizzard doesn't have any actual claim. (Ice frog never worked for blizzard.) Lets say I make a game using an SDK or UT3 engine...unless the modding tools say ahead of time that the UT3 owners get to claim your product name under them... They dont have a real leg to stand upon.

Providing a means is not the same as actual inventing or claim to someones IP. (If you dont think it up or have someone working for you you dont get it.)

None the less of course they're going to go to court if nothing else to attempt or stall or have the other guy back down. (Granted many of the models were blizzard design, but in DOTA 2 they had to change them for this reason. The names were not blizzard design though)

The guy who invented the hammer and screw driver dont get to claim every building is their IP.
NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#7 - 2012-02-10 21:41:43 UTC
Kattshiro wrote:
Rights go to the inventor... Unless they work for a company. (In which case their name still goes on it, but the company owns the rights.)

Because it was a MOD, and never was WC3 brings you DOTA or blizzard DOTA or WC3 dota. blizzard doesn't have any actual claim. (Ice frog never worked for blizzard.) Lets say I make a game using an SDK or UT3 engine...unless the modding tools say ahead of time that the UT3 owners get to claim your product name under them... They dont have a real leg to stand upon.

Providing a means is not the same as actual inventing or claim to someones IP. (If you dont think it up or have someone working for you you dont get it.)

None the less of course they're going to go to court if nothing else to attempt or stall or have the other guy back down. (Granted many of the models were blizzard design, but in DOTA 2 they had to change them for this reason. The names were not blizzard design though)

The guy who invented the hammer and screw driver dont get to claim every building is their IP.


If that is the case, then Valve have the right to trademark the name. I read yet another article, this time, who owns that name? Plus it tells bit more history of dota. Site link is here. The "latest" guy that stepped up to manage dota was icefrog, and he took dota with him when he was hired by valve.

I agree that dota should be free of trademark. If people do have to pay to play dota2, Valve would take a lot of criticism. Though I would still pay to play the game, Valve is one of the few companies I can count on to provide me a good game.
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#8 - 2012-02-10 23:08:17 UTC
I'd be surprised if Blizzard does not have a strong legal case here. The guy that "took" DOTA with him did not create it in the first place but took over? It was made using Blizzard tools on a Blizzard game and Valve already got a dispute over this trademark with some of the people who made DOTA!?

If anything none of them has a right to it, and if one of them does, Valve has more right? How come? Even the name was based on Warcraft Lore, the more I read the more it seems like a there is no argument that Blizzard has more right to it. I wish neither gets it to be fair. Besides, Valve will just implement a stupid shop where one can buy keys to unlock rare hats found in crates dropping in every single game of DOTA 2 lol
NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#9 - 2012-02-11 02:51:59 UTC
2bhammered wrote:
Besides, Valve will just implement a stupid shop where one can buy keys to unlock rare hats found in crates dropping in every single game of DOTA 2 lol


Hahaha, for reals man.
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#10 - 2012-02-11 15:06:14 UTC
NeoShocker wrote:
2bhammered wrote:
Besides, Valve will just implement a stupid shop where one can buy keys to unlock rare hats found in crates dropping in every single game of DOTA 2 lol


Hahaha, for reals man.



I'm just saying Lol in any case, I do look forward to see how the game turns out, not sure if I will end up playing it though. LoL seems to be good enough and that is free already.
Gavin DeVries
JDI Industries
#11 - 2012-02-11 15:46:07 UTC
2bhammered wrote:
I wondered what happened to the guys who made it?


I'm not 100% certain of this, but based upon past happenings, they probably work for Valve. Counter Strike was a mod. Valve hired the guys who made the mod, paid them for the mod, then included the mod with all copies of Half Life. Narbacular Drop was done as a senior project by a group of students at Digi-Pen, Valve hired them all, paid them for the game they made, then had them turn it into Portal.

I never played WC3 (sacrilege, I know) so know nothing about DotA. Some companies claim the rights to all mods of their products, while others don't. It sounds to me as if Valve is in the right here, but I'm no lawyer. My personal opinion can be summed up by the old saying: You snooze, you lose.

PVP is a question with no single right answer, but a lot of wrong ones.

2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#12 - 2012-02-11 16:14:06 UTC  |  Edited by: 2bhammered
Gavin DeVries wrote:
2bhammered wrote:
I wondered what happened to the guys who made it?


I'm not 100% certain of this, but based upon past happenings, they probably work for Valve. Counter Strike was a mod. Valve hired the guys who made the mod, paid them for the mod, then included the mod with all copies of Half Life. Narbacular Drop was done as a senior project by a group of students at Digi-Pen, Valve hired them all, paid them for the game they made, then had them turn it into Portal.

I never played WC3 (sacrilege, I know) so know nothing about DotA. Some companies claim the rights to all mods of their products, while others don't. It sounds to me as if Valve is in the right here, but I'm no lawyer. My personal opinion can be summed up by the old saying: You snooze, you lose.


I just read this wiki, interesting stuff also the wiki of the guy who made it. I now believe Blizzard has every right to the trademark. Seems like a open and shut case. Also the guy who made the mod Steve Feak and the guy who ran it and the community DOTA allstars both develop for and help run Riot Games that makes League of Legends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients


And this is the guy Valve hired, what a weird person. He also added heroes (from warcraft 3) after he took over the game.

"IceFrog is renowned for his continued anonymity, having never publicly disclosed his actual name."

How the **** can you be a lead designer for a Valve game and not disclose your real name and have no one know what it is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IceFrog


Also interesting article below. Seems to me that Valve may just have lost my respect, in a big way. But to be fair, very few companies will ever have my respect Lol However, Riot Games is one of those companies for making LoL and I for sure respect Blizzard more than Valve.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/08/17/riot-games-dev-counter-files-dota-trademark/

"PCG: Did you think that trademarking the name was even possible? Guinsoo, as the creator of DotA Allstars, you have as much of a right to claim the “DotA” name as anyone else in the world. Why hadn’t you or Riot tried to trademark it before?

Steve “Guinsoo” Feak: I was aware that trademarking the name was possible, but originally I had no intention of filing for any DotA-related trademarks because DotA is owned by the community. DotA is a mod that many of people have contributed to, not a single person or development team like most typical games. As soon as you step away and create a new game, like we at Riot Games did with League of Legends, it’s no longer DotA. After all, DotA wouldn’t be where it is today without the many contributions the community has made over the years. Neither Pendragon, Riot Games nor I have any desire to dictate the future of DotA."


"PCG: Who has the rights to own properties like “DotA” that started out as a single map, but have evolved into so much more? Do you have insight into the legal side of things?

Pendragon: I don’t know the answer to that question, but certainly the original authors, such as Eul and Guinsoo, and the many contributing authors and companies such as Blizzard, have contributed significantly to the creation of DotA. The situation is not as simple as a single person having total ownership over the name. But now we are exploring options to protect the DotA name. We [Dota-Allstars, LL--the company run by Pendragon] have filed for the “Defense of the Ancients” trademark to protect the work that dozens of authors have invested to create the game and on behalf of the millions of DotA players all over the world. If we were to obtain the trademark, we would keep the game and the DotA name freely available to the mod community. That way the game can continue to be worked on and enjoyed by the independent community. We want to ensure that the DotA name remains in the hands of the community and that it is free for all to use.

We have filed for the “Defense of the Ancients” trademark to protect the work that dozens of authors have done to create the game and on behalf of the millions of DotA players all over the world."

"PCG: What’s the best outcome for the average gamer at this point?

Pendragon: I think the best-case scenario would be that nobody owns the trademark to the DotA name. But if Valve were to ultimately gain the rights, I hope that they would abandon the trademark and release it to the community to allow them to continue to modify, play and experience DotA for free. That’s what DotA is all about."

That's what it comes down to, Valve will charge money for what everyone wanted to be a free mod for another game NOT made by Valve. Community, creators and even Blizzard wants it to be FREE!

"Blizzard Dota will be totaly free included in sc2:start edition which is, guess what, free too. "

Meaning if Blizzard wins DOTA=Will be free and Valve need to change name, if Valve wins=DOTA costs money and DOTA 2 will be called DOTA 2

/go go Blizzard Lol
NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#13 - 2012-02-12 10:19:07 UTC  |  Edited by: NeoShocker
Well, the most important factor that most people are really overseeing things.

Is DotA2 going to be free? People are assuming DotA2 will be pay to play (not the monthly thing, just one time cost) and I don't know why.

If so, maybe people going to view the whole trademark thing differently? If not, then its something I'd be against valve to trademark.

Considering Valve is a company that supports the community, I'm pretty sure it will be free.

And one more thing, lets not talk about the "store" thing should it be free, thought it seem likely, but its still pretty early to say such thing.
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#14 - 2012-02-12 10:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: 2bhammered
NeoShocker wrote:
Well, the most important factor that most people are really overseeing things.

Is DotA2 going to be free? People are assuming DotA2 will be pay to play (not the monthly thing, just one time cost) and I don't know why.

If so, maybe people going to view the whole trademark thing differently? If not, then its something I'd be against valve to trademark.

Considering Valve is a company that supports the community, I'm pretty sure it will be free.

And one more thing, lets not talk about the "store" thing should it be free, thought it seem likely, but its still pretty early to say such thing.



Ok I learned more and what happened is that some of the original guys who made it owned the trademark for the full name defense of whatever a name based on WC3 Lore. They got it because Valve tried to trademark it and they won. 2 of the DOTA devs work for Valve on DOTA 2, Icefrog most famous but the rest work in other studios or not at all and are ignored. They sold that last year to Blizzard, so Valve decided to trademark DOTA as a noun instead. Blizzard filed an injunction to prevent them from getting the trademark because they argue they have more right to it, and they own what DOTA really means. So...

Valve says but DOTA is a noun we don't trade mark defense of ancients or whatever, yet they call it DOTA 2?? Also it seems most of the game looks VERY similar to WC3 resources made by Blizzard. Blizzard is making their own DOTA a free version for SC2 starter edition (free demo version.)

The more I learn the more I think Valve are the dicks here. Also they are of course after making money, ain't everyone ? but why call it DOTA 2 if you don't try to get more sales on name alone, the other guys made a game and called it LoL instead of DOTA, because they felt DOTA belonged to the community and everyone. So blizzard is not suing over the game, they want Valve not be able to trademark DOTA for their own reasons but to be fair, or I at least agree with Blizzard.

Valve should just change name or call it DOTA but not trademark it. Anyway, in the end it is not as interesting as the headlines make it out to be. My bet is Blizzard will win. Also even if Valve loses the name, the game will still be made, just they wont own the trademark to DOTA and perhaps be called something else.

The store thing was a joke Oops really /because Valve got me to buy keysLol
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#15 - 2012-02-12 17:28:10 UTC
This Battle Suit has made me giggle for hours on end.

Steam vs Blizzard. A superb match made in heaven for Lawsuits.

I will withhold my opnion on the matter until I see more posts here, but so much fun to be had from this.

Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco