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Will Minmitar-Amarr relations improve?

Author
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#41 - 2012-02-11 09:13:32 UTC
Jev North wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
Feel free to dismiss these truthful statements as Imperial propaganda, since I am True Amarr.

Thank you. I suppose I will.


Aha, you have fallen into my cunningly designed trap, denouncing my truthful statements as Imperial propaganda, while ignoring that I am not an Imperial True Amarr.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2012-02-11 12:16:06 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:


And, Captain Farel:

Lyn Farel wrote:
The Empire has absolutely nothing to prove to an outside attacker, theorically, much as any civilization will have nothing to prove to someone trying to invade it. Maybe it was the opposite in the past, maybe the ball was in the Amarrian side before this war, but now it is in the Republic side. Also, the Republic consciously choosed war.


The Empire does have to prove that they sincerely want peace, because we're don't want to sit down at the table with them and find that they're just wasting our time.


As much as I hold a lot of respect for what your corporation believes in, I am afraid that your governement does not share a lot of your ideals. Indeed, you are right, the Minmatar Republic does not want to sit down at a table.

Maybe they have in the past, but now the thing they want is war. You can argue whatever you want about being still open to peace, but this is a lie. I firmly believe that Terra Matar is, but not the Republic.

Astrid Stjerna wrote:

And Kithrus, I fully agree that this isn't hoing to be solved overnight. What disappoints me about our dealings with the Empire is that I've seen very little serious interest on your government's part in solving it at all.


I still wonder how people can continue to write something like this. I really apologize for being rude, but I am still stunned to read pots and kettle arguments everywhere.

Vallek Arkonnis wrote:


I think it was promised to do something about it, not to end it. No one can promise that. It's like saying, "I promise to end crime." You can mitigate it, sure, but making all crime cease is impossible. Same goes for illegal raids.


A lot of these raids are conducted by Amarr Navy ships. The same way I have seen Caldari Navy ships illegally incursionning in Amarr space in the past, or Gallente official ones... The same was also true in Federation space, or Caldari space, and still is.
Gottii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-02-11 15:55:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Gottii
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
My Minmatar allies, you're really missing the bigger picture.

Your freedom will not be the only one under threat when the two superpowers of New Eden, the Federation and the Holy Empire, decide to slug it out.

You are just one blip to the Amarr. If this world war was to take place, the Minmatar will be one of many peoples fighting against subjugation.

Do not forget that.



Perhaps you should focus your "superpower's military might" on rescuing your people imprisoned and subjugated on Caldari Prime, or finally finding some kind of stability in Placid and Intaki.

The Federation gave us aid in the Great Rebellion. for which we will always owe a debt of gratitude. We did the fighting, and the dying. Do not forget that. Normally I ignore your ignorance, as do most Matari, but you trying to somehow take credit for the victory that was hard won by millions of Matari slaves turned soldiers is something I find insulting. Take your patronizing and your poor and outdated strategic analysis and go , if you have nothing worthy to add.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-02-11 20:35:04 UTC
Gottii wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
My Minmatar allies, you're really missing the bigger picture.

Your freedom will not be the only one under threat when the two superpowers of New Eden, the Federation and the Holy Empire, decide to slug it out.

You are just one blip to the Amarr. If this world war was to take place, the Minmatar will be one of many peoples fighting against subjugation.

Do not forget that.



Perhaps you should focus your "superpower's military might" on rescuing your people imprisoned and subjugated on Caldari Prime, or finally finding some kind of stability in Placid and Intaki.

The Federation gave us aid in the Great Rebellion. for which we will always owe a debt of gratitude. We did the fighting, and the dying. Do not forget that. Normally I ignore your ignorance, as do most Matari, but you trying to somehow take credit for the victory that was hard won by millions of Matari slaves turned soldiers is something I find insulting. Take your patronizing and your poor and outdated strategic analysis and go , if you have nothing worthy to add.


Biting the hand that feeds you? You would think the Matari would be on their knees thanking the Gallente for such a (temporary) deliverance from the Lash of the Amarr.

You people just don't like anyone trying to lend a helpful hand. Blink

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#45 - 2012-02-11 20:37:40 UTC
Gottii wrote:
Take your patronizing and your poor and outdated strategic analysis and go , if you have nothing worthy to add.


Strategic analysis?

How does a Republic with the third smallest armed force with even smaller capabilities in power projection and conquest, the third smallest population, the weakest economy in New Eden, and the highest level of sectarian violence and domestic instability hope to defeat the largest, most powerful and most stable empire known to man?

Not alone, that's how.

I'll be first to admit the current conflict with Tibus Heth is short-sighted in the long-run. While the Caldari might consider their archnemesis to be us Gallenteans, the truth is, is that our archnemesis is the Empire. In the same way, if Amarrian superiority allowed for them to have the concept of an archnemesis, it's the Federation, the only other expansionist power in New Eden.

You're not the greatest threat to them. We are.

If you think you can defeat them by conquering some outlying territories that don't even house the bulk of your enslaved people, then you're throwing your lives away for nothing.
Michael Tait
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-02-11 23:20:02 UTC
I think it would be safe to say that the Empire is powerful enough to threaten the stability of both the Federals and the Minmatar, just not at the same time.

The Empire is a massive force, but all of our factions are wrought with in-fighting and lack of organization. Peace is inevitably impossible between the Empire and the Republic, we've been beyond peace for centuries.

I would contend that the Gallente are more likely to keep peace with the Empire, even if, simply by the nature of the two states, they will be forced into border skirmishes.
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#47 - 2012-02-12 01:01:13 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:

Alone, the Minmatar Republic has no hopes of defeating the Amarr Empire.


This is as revolting a work of enemy propaganda as anything Jamyl's minions could have designed, but from a so-called ally. Where did you compose this piece? In a scriptorium-mortuary on Amarr Prime itself? I only hope that your Gallentean friends and sponsors have a more constructive approach when working with Minmatar towards a better future for our joint peoples' chidren and their childrens' chidren, than you do.

Additionally, among your tractor statistics. Seriphyn Inhonores, you conveniently choose to forget that a certain percentage of our people - good free Matar of the Six tribes to cite one example -do not necessarily fall under the political aegis of the Republic, nor would wish to. When faced with constant adversity, all good Matar give and receive to and from their Minmatar brothers and sisters without debt incurred, wherever they may be found. The current entity known as The Republic is just one facet of the diamond, Seriphyn Inhonores. There are others that shine more brightly but are merely occluded.

All that is left for me to say, here, is Ura Matar. to you.

Good day.


"Modern Life is Rubbish"

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-02-12 01:50:44 UTC
My personal opinions....

The Empress seems to have been a more progressive person, probably in all of Amarrian history. Even before she became Empress she has shown to not be one to accept traditional values, for example she avoided death during the competition despite actually losing said competition. It is very possible that her future plans for emancipation seem genuine.

I feel a little more conflicted when it comes to Minmatar views on the issue. While the Amarrians did mistreat them, there are many slaves within the Empire that are very happy. One could even go as far as saying that some would PREFER being under the control of their masters. However after emancipation the former slaves should have the right to go where they please, most will probably go to Minmatar space to avoid the inevitable remains of racism that will exist in the Empire for a few decades.

I personally feel that the Federation and the Empire will remain at peace unless the Caldari decide to take part in these events. Right now the Federation is mostly worried about the recent Caldari victories and the Empire is taking precautions to prevent further Minmatar incursions. The Federation is already heavily involved given their close relations with the Republic. However if the State decides to help the Empire, the two superpowers may be forced to slug it out in direct confrontations.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2012-02-12 09:53:49 UTC
Ssakaa wrote:
[quote=Seriphyn Inhonores]

Additionally, among your tractor statistics. Seriphyn Inhonores, you conveniently choose to forget that a certain percentage of our people - good free Matar of the Six tribes to cite one example -do not necessarily fall under the political aegis of the Republic, nor would wish to.




And why would they? The Republic is a shambles.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Hesperus Vanderbeets
The Greater Goon
#50 - 2012-02-12 10:11:41 UTC
Alas yon my fellow space-nobles!

The election ov the great Council will soon be upon us and we are woefully under-represented! I have risen to this cause and will smite the enemies ov our fine community with lance, and sword and great honour. But to do this I need thine press ov thine button!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=68768&find=unread
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2012-02-12 11:20:25 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
My personal opinions....

The Empress seems to have been a more progressive person, probably in all of Amarrian history. Even before she became Empress she has shown to not be one to accept traditional values, for example she avoided death during the competition despite actually losing said competition. It is very possible that her future plans for emancipation seem genuine.

I feel a little more conflicted when it comes to Minmatar views on the issue. While the Amarrians did mistreat them, there are many slaves within the Empire that are very happy. One could even go as far as saying that some would PREFER being under the control of their masters. However after emancipation the former slaves should have the right to go where they please, most will probably go to Minmatar space to avoid the inevitable remains of racism that will exist in the Empire for a few decades.

I personally feel that the Federation and the Empire will remain at peace unless the Caldari decide to take part in these events. Right now the Federation is mostly worried about the recent Caldari victories and the Empire is taking precautions to prevent further Minmatar incursions. The Federation is already heavily involved given their close relations with the Republic. However if the State decides to help the Empire, the two superpowers may be forced to slug it out in direct confrontations.


The Empress is hard to decipher, compared to proved progressists like the 2 last Emperors. I am still waiting to see what will happen, considering that at the same time she managed to shake a lot of the Amarrian tradition to move forward when it was needed, and she also managed to launch a new Reclaiming, with a very ambigous meaning behind.

It is also true that some slaves prefer to remain slaves under a (most of the time, benevolent) master. I have witnessed that phenomenon in my own childhood. But I think they would probably do not mind to get emancipated and work as standard workers do, except of course, for the few of them that are very, very fervent believers.

I would also add that there is a lot more racism in the Republic, to my opinion. It suffice to see how different people are treated in the Republic, or how each tribe hold severe grudges against some other tribes.

Also, the Empire and the Federation are already at war, at least in a proxy war as much as the Republic and the Empire are.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-02-12 12:59:53 UTC
Quote:


I would also add that there is a lot more racism in the Republic, to my opinion. It suffice to see how different people are treated in the Republic, or how each tribe hold severe grudges against some other tribes.

Also, the Empire and the Federation are already at war, at least in a proxy war as much as the Republic and the Empire are.



Really then? In which case I would imagine many slaves just staying in the Empire and slowly working their way up, generation at a time to the social status that True Amarr have, or at least close to it.

And wouldn't say we are at war. The Urium Kador attacks were unsanctioned and the Empire has apologized for it. But we probably would of launched a counter-attack were it not for the Caldari invasion.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Drasden
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-02-12 14:20:27 UTC
"Seriphyn Inhonores" wrote:
How does a Republic with the third smallest armed force with even smaller capabilities in power projection and conquest, the third smallest population, the weakest economy in New Eden, and the highest levelof sectarian violenceand domestic instability hope to defeat the largest, most powerful and most stable empire known to man?

I'll be first to admit the current conflict with Tibus Heth is short-sighted in the long-run. While the Caldari might consider their archnemesis to be us Gallenteans, the truth is, is that our archnemesis is the Empire. In the same way, if Amarrian superiority allowed for them to have the concept of an archnemesis, it's the Federation, the only other expansionist power in New Eden.

You're not the greatest threat to them. We are.


You seem to be under the misapprehension that your side's military is the largest challenger to the Amarrian fleets, which is of course incorrect: That would be the State Navy, which many have argued is in fact more powerful than the Imperial Fleet (Though I doubt its odds against all three of the Amarrian states). The Capsuleer-centric nature of the Empyrean wars has allowed the Republic and Federation to sustain the illusion that they are on equal footing with their enemies, when in fact a full out war would be a rather one-sided affair.

The Republic would fall quickly to the combined might of the Imperial Fleet, the Royal Khanid Navy, and the Ammatar Fleet. If the Caldari had not already overtaken the Federation by that point, the Amarrian states would then quickly move to support their allies. The Federation would be split between the two, with the Amarr taking their fair share of POW's to enslave for the effort. I cannot see this action taking more than a decade to complete, which is where we get into why this has not been done: Resistance.

The Empire could not ensure the subjugation of the Minmatar when slavery was unrestricted and the Matari had nothing to their name that was not given to them by the Federation or Empire (All of their noteworthy accomplishments having been wiped out long ago by the Empire at that point). The State is, quite simply, not terribly interested in aggressive expansion or the costs associated with occupation. Even in victory, you see, the two factions would suffer great burdens in trying to keep what they claimed, so total war is not economical for them. They are content to risk a few border constellations and a fraction of their military assets on a more even conflict. But do not be fooled, Gallente: you are no true threat.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2012-02-12 20:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Quote:


I would also add that there is a lot more racism in the Republic, to my opinion. It suffice to see how different people are treated in the Republic, or how each tribe hold severe grudges against some other tribes.

Also, the Empire and the Federation are already at war, at least in a proxy war as much as the Republic and the Empire are.



Really then? In which case I would imagine many slaves just staying in the Empire and slowly working their way up, generation at a time to the social status that True Amarr have, or at least close to it.

And wouldn't say we are at war. The Urium Kador attacks were unsanctioned and the Empire has apologized for it. But we probably would of launched a counter-attack were it not for the Caldari invasion.


What I mean is just that examples of xenophobic behavior in the Republic are countless. From all the mob incidents targeting the newly returned Starkmanir and Nefantars, frictions with the Thukkers, attacks on followers of Abel Jarek, and a general very insulationist mindset that flirts with selfishness ala Gallente, but revolving around the Tribe or family instead (that last part, at least, to my own personnal experience).

I still think most of the slaves still return to their faction of origin, especially if they are of first, or second generation. After that, it would seem logical for this to get more random, according to a case by case basis. Anyway, I think that a lot of slaves that were born into slavery stay in the Amarr Empire by convenience and also by "ignorance". If the Amarr society is the only thing that a slave has experienced and learned in his/her own life, how could that slave prefer another society to this one ? The case of a slave willing to leave the Empire occurs mostly when the slave is mistreated (and yet, not always, some are just teached to consider that a normal thing), or when he has actually reasons to do so, as various as they may be (education, curiosity, dreams, hate, shame, etc).

I would really love to see official surveys conducted on this.

For the war, well, even if war situations occur less often between the Federation and the Empire in the proxy war, they still continue to happen. Especially between pod-pilots engaged in the Militias, that are as much as at war with their direct enemy than the more indirect one (here, Federation - Empire).
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#55 - 2012-02-13 18:21:15 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:

And why would they? The Republic is a shambles.


Because of what the Empire did to us.

If your Empire hadn't arrived on our world seven hundred years ago, we might be facing a very different Republic today (if it could be called a Republic at that point).

That's the one thing that none of you seem to grasp: we were just fine before you landed. Our culture was developing at its own pace, our people were (aside from inter-tribal conflicts) relatively peaceful, and we had a spirituality and a heritage that we could be proud of.

And then, the Empire arrived. You enslaved our children, scattered our people, and set to work systematically eradicating anything that made us Matari. Because of you, I didn't see my parents for sixteen years. Because of you, my father is dead and my mother a widow.

You fill our veins with a poison when we won't behave to your standards. You see no problem with trading us like livestock. And you continually find ways to rationalize such barbaric practices, and tell yourselves that you're doing 'god's work'.

So, yeah. The Republic is a shambles, but keep in mind exactly how that happened, Captain Blake.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2012-02-13 19:09:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
It's well over a century since the Republic was formed, but then again it's typical that a Minmatar would try to hoist the blame for their problems onto someone else.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#57 - 2012-02-13 19:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kithrus
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

And why would they? The Republic is a shambles.


Because of what the Empire did to us.

If your Empire hadn't arrived on our world seven hundred years ago, we might be facing a very different Republic today (if it could be called a Republic at that point).

That's the one thing that none of you seem to grasp: we were just fine before you landed. Our culture was developing at its own pace, our people were (aside from inter-tribal conflicts) relatively peaceful, and we had a spirituality and a heritage that we could be proud of.

And then, the Empire arrived. You enslaved our children, scattered our people, and set to work systematically eradicating anything that made us Matari. Because of you, I didn't see my parents for sixteen years. Because of you, my father is dead and my mother a widow.

You fill our veins with a poison when we won't behave to your standards. You see no problem with trading us like livestock. And you continually find ways to rationalize such barbaric practices, and tell yourselves that you're doing 'god's work'.

So, yeah. The Republic is a shambles, but keep in mind exactly how that happened, Captain Blake.


I'm not going to pretend that mistakes were not made but I have to ask you at what point is the Republic responsible for itself. The Gallentean according to you have done a great job getting you running but when does the direction become you own?

Rodj Blake wrote:

It's well over a century since the Republic was formed, but then again it's typical that a Minmatar would try to hoist the blame for their problems onto someone else.


And that is the point I was going to get to.

People can claim one way or another who was more in the right or wrong but that will never change the truth and sadly no matter who is shown the truth they will never accept it.

What is important is that you take responsibility for yourselves.

You can jump and scream and pout all you like that slaves are still in the empire but if you don't have a good home for them to return to it would be just as great a crime to free them as it was in your eyes to enslave them.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#58 - 2012-02-13 19:44:02 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
It's well over a century since the Republic was formed, but then again it's typical that a Minmatar would try to hoist the blame for their problems onto someone else.


Well the problems were caused in the Republic's founding. 100 years is almost newborn in age terms for an Empire Admiral, not to mention it's had to go through rapid acceleration due to outside influence, rather than be allowed to develop at a natural pace.

The Amarrian Empire and Gallente Federations developed naturally over thousands of years. While the State as an independant entity has been around a small time, it had a long developed history as part of the Federation with a sense of personal identity.

The Republic is little more than a screaming newborn torn from the Mother's womb in comparison.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#59 - 2012-02-13 21:17:59 UTC
Kithrus wrote:

People can claim one way or another who was more in the right or wrong but that will never change the truth and sadly no matter who is shown the truth they will never accept it.

What is important is that you take responsibility for yourselves.

You can jump and scream and pout all you like that slaves are still in the empire but if you don't have a good home for them to return to it would be just as great a crime to free them as it was in your eyes to enslave them.


You make a good point, Kithrus -- it's true that the Republic isn't as stable as we'd like it to be.

My point, however, is this: the state of the Republic as it stands is as much the Empire's fault as it is our own. There would have been no need for a Republic to form if the Empire hadn't come in with their slave-takers so long ago.

Now that the Republic is here -- as flawed as it may be, it's all we have. We're taking responsibility for ourselves as best we can, given our current situation, but the Empire has got to acknowledge its own part in the Republic's formation if there's to be any hope for either of our peoples.

Like it or not, Kithrus, through the Empire's own actions, they created their own worst enemy. It's as much your fault as it is ours.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#60 - 2012-02-13 22:46:22 UTC
The slave culture in Amarr is just as much in need of Matriculation to free society as the rescued slave or recently emancipated slave. Until there is a humbling of the slave holder's heart and an admission that the Amarr faith should be spread not through slavery but through genuine living and benefiting all humankind, there will be no improvement of transnational relations.

Slavery was built over millennia; injustice was executed over milennia. Should the slave holder be impatient with a process of reconciliation that takes a long time? The perpetrator of injustice needs to be patient with the process of righting that wrong. Improvement will come when the those who once enslaved others build credibility over time and show over time that they can be trusted. There must first be an admission that slavery is not, nor ever was, of God. There must be an admission that slavery is and has always been ungodly to the core. The slave holder's repentance must not just be toward those enslaved but also towards the God who's name you have dragged into slavery as your justification.

The missing ingredient is humility, that most difficult of qualities that requires the bravest in spirit to realize.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace