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Titan nerf - is it happening?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#41 - 2012-02-10 23:56:08 UTC
Surge Roth wrote:
Considering the price tag is only one of the factors, yea, it is balanced.
…except that price is not a factor in balancing. Again: price is an easily avoidable factor in availability, which is a completely different thing. So no, costing 100 bil is utterly irrelevant to their ability to instapop a Dominix.

Quote:
There's a reason why they're used by alliances with a lot of people in them.
…except that they're quite easy to come by these days, and that they're not (now, or ever before) balanced for that. The problem is that titans still fall into the “best counter for X ships of type Y is X+1 ships of type Y” category. When this happens, things are inherently broken — no “if”s, no “but”s.

Quote:
But i forget we live in a world where people want instant gratification and disregard how people got the power they have in the first place and just assume it's unfair.
Good job missing the point almost entirely. Roll
Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2012-02-11 00:01:14 UTC
Titans were a bad idea in the first place, and not being able to hit subcaps is the least they can do to balance those stupid things.

It would be even better if they just removed them from the game, maybe reimbursing the pilots as they did, but that would make too much sense I guess.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-02-11 00:07:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:

when my mate has them pinned down or if they're so far out that their angular velocity doesn't matter... yea, I can hit them, pal.


Newsflash bud.

Drakes are getting swatted out of the sky at close range. Once 50 titans hit the field you cant do squat because you die so fast. 0.0 is now a game of who has the most titans and right now there is only one winner every time.



I've got a news flash for you too. When you blow up your sig radius with over sized shield extenders, it makes you an easier target to hit. I bet some of them where using microwarps too, to 'go really fast' not realizing that their sig radius is the size of a freighter. Also, I'm willing to bet them drakes where also pinned down by support fleet.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-02-11 00:15:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:
Considering the price tag is only one of the factors, yea, it is balanced.
…except that price is not a factor in balancing. Again: price is an easily avoidable factor in availability, which is a completely different thing. So no, costing 100 bil is utterly irrelevant to their ability to instapop a Dominix.

Quote:
There's a reason why they're used by alliances with a lot of people in them.
…except that they're quite easy to come by these days, and that they're not (now, or ever before) balanced for that. The problem is that titans still fall into the “best counter for X ships of type Y is X+1 ships of type Y” category. When this happens, things are inherently broken — no “if”s, no “but”s.

Quote:
But i forget we live in a world where people want instant gratification and disregard how people got the power they have in the first place and just assume it's unfair.
Good job missing the point almost entirely. Roll


Cost is a determining factor because it takes time and some PvEing and/or ganking of high value targets to get that isk. Again, they're easy to come by because people allowed it to happen. The alliances fielding these ships of mass destruction didn't start off with 150 titan fleets. Took em years to make it happen. And any fool who is stupid enough to fly solo in one will part ways with it in no time. They are justified in blowing up your crappy sub cap ships. If they get nerfed and become too weak, then it'll be one of many ships people just don't bother using anymore because they suck. They're suppose to be all powerful. They're suppose to be a pain in the ass to fight.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-02-11 00:15:51 UTC
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
Titans were a bad idea in the first place, and not being able to hit subcaps is the least they can do to balance those stupid things.

It would be even better if they just removed them from the game, maybe reimbursing the pilots as they did, but that would make too much sense I guess.

Reimbursement would be the best solution.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2012-02-11 00:22:40 UTC
Surge Roth wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:

when my mate has them pinned down or if they're so far out that their angular velocity doesn't matter... yea, I can hit them, pal.


Newsflash bud.

Drakes are getting swatted out of the sky at close range. Once 50 titans hit the field you cant do squat because you die so fast. 0.0 is now a game of who has the most titans and right now there is only one winner every time.



I've got a news flash for you too. When you blow up your sig radius with over sized shield extenders, it makes you an easier target to hit. I bet some of them where using microwarps too, to 'go really fast' not realizing that their sig radius is the size of a freighter. Also, I'm willing to bet them drakes where also pinned down by support fleet.


So the options are, brick tank armour fleet that cant move and get ripped apart by titans or faster sheild fleets that get ripped apart by titans.

When the only counter to a ship is more of the same ship things need to change as they have done in the past.
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#47 - 2012-02-11 00:32:50 UTC  |  Edited by: LtCol Laurentius
baltec1 wrote:


Battleship is to a titan what a frigate is to a battleship. Try to fit frigates with BS turrets.


Sorry my friend, but you are wrong. There are only 4 main classes of ships and weapons in EVE.

To the games physics engine, a titan is a XL ship, like the dread, the carrier and the supercarrier, armed with XL guns.
Battleships are large, armed with large weapons
Battlecruisers and cruisers are medium, armed with medium weapons
Frigates and destroyers are small, armed with small weapons.

So if you advocate XL turrets not hitting large targets, I would assume you also advocate large turrets not hitting medium targets and medium turrets not hitting small targets.

I know. Consistency can be a *****.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-02-11 00:48:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:

when my mate has them pinned down or if they're so far out that their angular velocity doesn't matter... yea, I can hit them, pal.


Newsflash bud.

Drakes are getting swatted out of the sky at close range. Once 50 titans hit the field you cant do squat because you die so fast. 0.0 is now a game of who has the most titans and right now there is only one winner every time.



I've got a news flash for you too. When you blow up your sig radius with over sized shield extenders, it makes you an easier target to hit. I bet some of them where using microwarps too, to 'go really fast' not realizing that their sig radius is the size of a freighter. Also, I'm willing to bet them drakes where also pinned down by support fleet.


So the options are, brick tank armour fleet that cant move and get ripped apart by titans or faster sheild fleets that get ripped apart by titans.

When the only counter to a ship is more of the same ship things need to change as they have done in the past.


Tough ****. A fleet that has years worth of effort behind it should kill your crappy sentimental battle cruisers. this is eve. Not world of warcraft where everything is the same with a different shade of brown and yellow.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2012-02-11 01:02:27 UTC
Surge Roth wrote:


Tough ****. A fleet that has years worth of effort behind it should kill your crappy sentimental battle cruisers. this is eve. Not world of warcraft where everything is the same with a different shade of brown and yellow.


Because the fleets involving hundreds of people that have worked together over years havent put in just as much if not more effort. What you are defending is exactly like wow gameplay where the level 85 (titans) wipe out the level 70s ( subcaps, carriers/dreads) in a handfull of vollies.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2012-02-11 01:06:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Surge Roth wrote:
They're suppose to be all powerful. They're suppose to be a pain in the ass to fight.
No. They're supposed to be giant epeens. Unfortunately, they made them all-powerful and a pain in the ass to fight for no particularly good reason.

Unless they're also supposed to be very easy to fight if you bring the right tools (and “the right tools” must not meant “more titans than the other side”), they are flawed designs to begin with, so it doesn't matter what else they're supposed to do — they need to be repurposed to fit within the overall design strategy of the game.

And no, no matter how much people would like it to be, price is not a factor in well-designed balance. People who bring it up only highlight that the balance needs to be fixed because it is based on fundamentally flawed and downright idiotic principles.

Oh, and by the way…
Quote:
this is eve. Not world of warcraft where everything is the same with a different shade of brown and yellow.
…that's why Titans dying horribly when faced with its proper counter needs to happen, rather than the current situation where the “N+1 of the same” is still the best solution for supercaps — that's pretty much the epitome of “the same with a different shade”.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-02-11 01:14:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:


Tough ****. A fleet that has years worth of effort behind it should kill your crappy sentimental battle cruisers. this is eve. Not world of warcraft where everything is the same with a different shade of brown and yellow.


Because the fleets involving hundreds of people that have worked together over years havent put in just as much if not more effort. What you are defending is exactly like wow gameplay where the level 85 (titans) wipe out the level 70s ( subcaps, carriers/dreads) in a handfull of vollies.


The circumstantial evidence says different. When an alliance pummels another with ships that take vastly more materials to build, time, and isk... I'm gonna side with the big guys as the people putting in more effort. Btw, WoW game play is to homogenize everything so no one feels they're at a disadvantage when pvping. In a game that's about war and money there's gonna be things that are the best. It only makes sense. And despite all the whining going on the forums I still see these ships as meh. Oh, they can insta pop a ****** tanked battleship. Boo hoo, go get a Kleenex and wipe those tears so no one can see them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#52 - 2012-02-11 01:18:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Surge Roth wrote:
Btw, WoW game play is to homogenize everything so no one feels they're at a disadvantage when pvping. In a game that's about war and money there's gonna be things that are the best. It only makes sense.
No. What makes sense is if there are things that are the best for a given situation, and if what you bring does not match the situation you're in, you're screwed — you should feel the disadvantage you (accidentally?) chose to the very marrow of your bones…

…for about 5s, when you wake up in your clone bay. This is what the current system fails to provide because there is a “best” thing to be had. War is about strategy. “Everyone bring as many [best thing] as you can” is not strategy — it's just a flat, moronic and thoroughly uninteresting levelling system.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-02-11 01:21:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:
They're suppose to be all powerful. They're suppose to be a pain in the ass to fight.
No. They're supposed to be giant epeens. Unfortunately, they made them all-powerful and a pain in the ass to fight for no particularly good reason.

Unless they're also supposed to be very easy to fight if you bring the right tools (and “the right tools” must not meant “more titans than the other side”), they are flawed designs to begin with, so it doesn't matter what else they're supposed to do — they need to be repurposed to fit within the overall design strategy of the game.

And no, no matter how much people would like it to be, price is not a factor in well-designed balance. People who bring it up only highlight that the balance needs to be fixed because it is based on fundamentally flawed and downright idiotic principles.

Oh, and by the way…
Quote:
this is eve. Not world of warcraft where everything is the same with a different shade of brown and yellow.
…that's why Titans dying horribly when faced with its proper counter needs to happen, rather than the current situation where the “N+1 of the same” is still the best solution for supercaps — that's pretty much the epitome of “the same with a different shade”.


Didn't realize epeen ships required months of training time and a galactic amount of effort that can only be accomplished by a well situated alliance, which is meant to be the flag ship of the alliance. The end all that be type ship.

Yea, it's only to say, "lulz we've spent months worth of effort and billions of isk to let one dude fly this ship so you guys can blow it up!"

No, it's a weapon meant to be used by alliances. If the only counter is to field more titans, then people know what they must do. They are balanced, but in a game that has no limits to how many can be fielded and what have you, of course people are going to field them if they put out the results they want. And that's to kill their enemies.

As many posters have said before, when people nerf something and destroy its capabilities to actually do what it used to do, people will settle for some lesser version of it and then that new thing will be whined about on the forums.

People will argue it's for the sake of balance, but in reality it's only for their perceived notion of balance. After all, it is in the eye of the beholder and to disagree with that is just plain ignorant when you got people who don't even do null sec defending them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#54 - 2012-02-11 01:28:55 UTC
Surge Roth wrote:
Didn't realize epeen ships required months of training time and a galactic amount of effort that can only be accomplished by a well situated alliance, which is meant to be the flag ship of the alliance.
Of course. That's why they are epeen ships.

Quote:
The end all that be type ship.
No such thing, unless the game is broken.

Quote:
If the only counter is to field more titans
…then they are inherently unbalanced and the game is broken. Congratulations, all ships are meaningless and three is no choice or variety in the game — it has become a pointless levelling system.

Quote:
They are balanced
…aside from the points you made that explained why they weren't.

Quote:
As many posters have said before, when people nerf something and destroy its capabilities to actually do what it used to do, people will settle for some lesser version of it and then that new thing will be whined about on the forums.
If the new thing has a proper counter, then it's all good.

Oh, and it has nothing to do with “perceived balance” either — one thing being universally better than all other options is pretty much the definition of “not balanced”.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-02-11 01:29:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:
Btw, WoW game play is to homogenize everything so no one feels they're at a disadvantage when pvping. In a game that's about war and money there's gonna be things that are the best. It only makes sense.
No. What makes sense is if there are things that are the best for a given situation, and if what you bring does not match the situation you're in, you're screwed — you should feel the disadvantage you (accidentally?) chose to the very marrow of your bones…

…for about 5s, when you wake up in your clone bay. This is what the current system fails to provide because there is a “best” thing to be had. War is about strategy. “Everyone bring as many [best thing] as you can” is not strategy — it's just a flat, moronic and thoroughly uninteresting leveling system.


War is about taking something you want, not strategy. Strategy is only involved when brute force can't get the job done. Look at WWII for an example. Threw as much people as possible to the nazis while constantly dropping bombs and kitchen sinks while shooting nukes at japan.

Not all strategies are good and what you said about best for the given situation is true, but no one has clearly found one to counter a few dozen titans with a support fleet outside of bringing more brute force, which makes sense. No game mechanic is stopping people from doing this.

It sucks if a certain alliance can't be beaten because they simply have more firepower, but that's fair. People shouldn't be given a helping hand by ccp to claim some space or w/e dumb ambitions they may have. Nerfing the titan wouldn't even make them more vulnerable. It'll just make it where they redirect their efforts in the next best thing, and then the cycle of crying will continue.
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#56 - 2012-02-11 01:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: LtCol Laurentius
XL gun tracking on the whole is not imbalanced, and identyfiyng "tracking" as the problem is derailing the entire discussion. And no, the cost of said ship or the training time required to get into one isnt really valid arguments either.

Basically the problem isnt tracking, cost or training time - it is the lack of rock-paper-scissors gameplay options for handling titans. And this problem gets more and more acute for each new titan that gets built, because the larger group of titans that gets fielded is, the likelyness of countering it with anything else than more titans quickly diminishes to zero.

Let me say that again: Lack of rock-paper-scissors options is the problem.

Now, you can nerf XL gun tracking to the point of gutting titans as combat ships. The problem with this is of course that it is inconsistent with other ship classes, and it takes away rather than add to the game. EVE is 10 years old. It has pilots with 150 million SP or more, and counting. I counted over 3000 pilots with over 100 million SP the other day. These veterans are EVE’s main content creators for the games signature features. We all know that without epic fleet battles and sovereignty conflict involving tens and thousands of players, EVE would just be like any other MMO, and to be perfectly honest, probably a mediocre one. Epic tales of epic fleet battles needs epic ships and epic losses. Losing your damned Abbadon doesn’t really cut it.

So no, you just can’t dial the game back to pre-RMR, take away the super caps and think for a minute that the game won’t lose the very same people that drive null sec conflict. Telling an EVE player to just stop training is NOT the solution. To coin a CCP catchphrase; EVE is forever. That means that the game needs to evolve with its players.

Personally I like adding to the game rather than detracting from it. Give the vets new things to train for. Capital interdictors. Capital electronic warfare ships. Mobile capital cynojamming ships. Capital mines (dont affect subcaps much), minelayers and minesweepers. Deployable and dockable motherships. In short - introduce a capital level rock-paper-scissors game that will drive the scale of EVEs allready massive battles to previosly unheard of complexity and scale.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#57 - 2012-02-11 01:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Surge Roth wrote:
War is about taking something you want
…which requires strategy. Brute force alone doesn't get anything done — you need an end-state and a way to get there. Want to know what happens when you brute-force without strategy? Embarassing things, that's what…

Quote:
Not all strategies are good and what you said about best for the given situation is true, but no one has clearly found one to counter a few dozen titans with a support fleet outside of bringing more brute force, which makes sense.
No, that's the part that doesn't make sense. If simple brute force can't be broken with smarts, then “sense” has long since left the building (and in a game, in particular, it has made vast portions of the game pointless).

Quote:
No game mechanic is stopping people from doing this.
…aside from the mechanics that make Titans their brute force and makes them a “best” ship without a hard counter except for more of the same.

Quote:
It sucks if a certain alliance can't be beaten because they simply have more firepower, but that's fair.
Not really, no. They should be trivial to beat with intelligent application of firepower.

Quote:
Nerfing the titan wouldn't even make them more vulnerable. It'll just make it where they redirect their efforts in the next best thing, and then the cycle of crying will continue.
…and the next best thing would have hard counters that would make it easy to beat, as it should be, so the cycle of crying would be vastly diminished. This is the error of your line of thinking: you believe that there must be a “best” ship without counters, but there is absolutely no reason for any such thing to exist. In fact, if such a thing exists, then it is, by definition, broken, overpowered, up for a nerf. The best thing would be to have a proper hard counter, but that would be seen as a nerf as well, so the QQ:ing from people who suddenly have to apply skill rather than rely on their wallets to buy them out of trouble would be the same.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#58 - 2012-02-11 01:38:14 UTC
Surge Roth wrote:


The circumstantial evidence says different. When an alliance pummels another with ships that take vastly more materials to build, time, and isk... I'm gonna side with the big guys as the people putting in more effort.


So why are you siding with titans which do not require even a fraction of the logistical resources a large subcap fleet needs?

Quote:

Btw, WoW game play is to homogenize everything so no one feels they're at a disadvantage when pvping. In a game that's about war and money there's gonna be things that are the best. It only makes sense. And despite all the whining going on the forums I still see these ships as meh. Oh, they can insta pop a ****** tanked battleship. Boo hoo, go get a Kleenex and wipe those tears so no one can see them.


So you feel a hanfull of people should utterly wipe out the vast bulk of people with a single ship that invalidates everything else? Tactics, fleet comp, FC skill, logistics and fleet discipline mean nothing. In essence, exactly the opposide to what you want is happening. It is currently impossible for a new alliance to make any gains in 0.0 because they just have titans dumped on them all the time which they cannot counter.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-02-11 01:40:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
crap


They're tools and are used to bust balls. Kill boards and isk efficiency is epeen.

Also, the game isn't broken, what's broken is your sick sense of balance.
In almost all situations in this game, numbers win. A well tanked battleship can't be killed by ****** 3 or 4 ****** frigate players, but with 5 or 6 crappy players it can. Alternatively, getting 2 players battleship sized damage will take it down.

That N+1 crap is in all forms of the game we play in. And a titan being able to rofl stop a few people is perfectly fine. either bring more fodder like the Americans did when storming the beach or get equivalent firepower.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-02-11 01:47:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:


The circumstantial evidence says different. When an alliance pummels another with ships that take vastly more materials to build, time, and isk... I'm gonna side with the big guys as the people putting in more effort.


So why are you siding with titans which do not require even a fraction of the logistical resources a large subcap fleet needs?

Quote:

Btw, WoW game play is to homogenize everything so no one feels they're at a disadvantage when pvping. In a game that's about war and money there's gonna be things that are the best. It only makes sense. And despite all the whining going on the forums I still see these ships as meh. Oh, they can insta pop a ****** tanked battleship. Boo hoo, go get a Kleenex and wipe those tears so no one can see them.


So you feel a hanfull of people should utterly wipe out the vast bulk of people with a single ship that invalidates everything else? Tactics, fleet comp, FC skill, logistics and fleet discipline mean nothing. In essence, exactly the opposide to what you want is happening. It is currently impossible for a new alliance to make any gains in 0.0 because they just have titans dumped on them all the time which they cannot counter.


Nothing is stopping those people from applying to those alliances and join the winning side. They got that way because they put in the time and effort into it. Those start up alliances haven't done anything outside of leaving carebear land.

What wouldn't be fair is if small fish were able to take out bigger fish.
Obviously, they'd lose. All that they have ever done would never prepare them for what the group with the titans have accomplished to get there. Again, when claiming space seems impossible to claim on your own, maybe it's time to suck it up and join one of the bigger groups. Preferably the one that seems like it'll be around for a while.