These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Nerf BCs Across the Board
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sprite Can
#1 - 2012-02-10 22:36:45 UTC
As it is now and has been for quite some time, Battlecruisers completely obsolete Cruisers and to a certain extent almost every ship class below them. They offer the best balance of tank, gank, mobility and cost by a wide margin. The Drake is the biggest culprit, followed by the Hurricane, but the issue extends to the entirety of the ship class. BCs should function more like Destroyers do in relation to Frigates.

Refreshing Lemon-Lime~
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2012-02-10 23:05:36 UTC
Ur noozledder: I can haz subskripshun?
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#3 - 2012-02-10 23:06:32 UTC
OP:

You are an idiot.

Please biomass ASAP, you'll be doing yourself a favour.

Ni.
Sprite Can
#4 - 2012-02-10 23:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sprite Can
@Zhilia Mann: I'm even sure how to acknowledge that.

@Lyrrashae: Would you like to give some reasons as to why I might be incorrect, rather than (poorly) attempting to insult me?

Refreshing Lemon-Lime~
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#5 - 2012-02-10 23:10:50 UTC
Sprite Can wrote:
@Zhilia Mann: I'm even sure how to acknowledge that.

@Lyrrashae: Would you like to give some reasons as to why I might be incorrect, rather than (poorly) attempting to insult me?


They say a picture says a thousand words. I figure a video ought to say more, so here's a video of me raping BCs in AFs: https://vimeo.com/35642474

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#6 - 2012-02-10 23:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
I would rather the Drake and Cane get a small nerf and the Tier 1's get a Small Buff, the Myrm and Harbinger seem about right. I would also like to see Cruisers get a buff to Utility / Fitting and Speed / Agility.

Lucky for me the CSM Minutes and posts by CCP Yitterbalm agree. \o/

Check out the CSM Minutes section on Ship Balance it has a lot of info Cruiser, HAC's under used Battlecruisers, EAF's T1 Frigates, HAC's and it seems they are all getting some work done.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
DRAKE (and to an extent, tier 2 battlecruisers):

There is a reason why it is the most used battlecruiser out there. The problem with the Drake is that it is does everything too well for little cost or sacrifice, while being easy to train for. Thus, and to an extent most of the tier 2 battlecruisers create a certain number of issues that should be addressed:

(Yes, leaving tier 1 battlecruisers out of the discussion because there is no point arguing with the obvious fact they need some attention).

Overshadow other tech 1 hulls: the leap in performance between cruiser and tier 2 battlecruiser classes is just too great for too little cost (average slot count, EHP mainly). This, coupled with the gain in damage for having access to more weapon slots, as well as extra fitting power (ever tried squeezing turrets into an Omen and keep a decent fit?), makes the small loss of speed irrelevant when leaving the cruiser class as battlecruisers still remain fairly mobile. That's partly why the Hurricane also is so popular.

Overshadows tech 2 counterparts: Heavy Assault Ships and Command Ships are suffering from this situation. This is most apparent with the Nighthawk, but any ship that shares a common role with them is affected. Why take the time to train up and pay for an expensive hull when there is an easy to get into and cheap option available that almost have the same performance?

Incorrectly funnel new players: don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP. What's the point of a Bellicose? Exequror? Maller? Moa? They shouldn't be things you just skip on the way to a greater purpose, like a leaf of salad in my 250gr double-layered onion and egg hamburger.
Robertson Nolen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-02-10 23:14:52 UTC
Sprite Can wrote:
@Zhilia Mann: I'm even sure how to acknowledge that.

@Lyrrashae: Would you like to give some reasons as to why I might be incorrect, rather than (poorly) attempting to insult me?


Cruisers are just like BCs as dessies are like frigs. My cruiser and BC can fit medium guns/launchers. My dessie/frig can fit small guns. My cruiser can fit large modules for tanking to some extent. My frig can fit medium modules for tanking to some extent.

Nerf threads, nerf threads everywhere
Sprite Can
#8 - 2012-02-10 23:15:50 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sprite Can wrote:
@Zhilia Mann: I'm even sure how to acknowledge that.

@Lyrrashae: Would you like to give some reasons as to why I might be incorrect, rather than (poorly) attempting to insult me?


They say a picture says a thousand words. I figure a video ought to say more, so here's a video of me raping BCs in AFs: https://vimeo.com/35642474

-Liang


I fail to see how "Drake/Harpy/Harpy/Kestrel/Firetail vs Brutix/Cane" qualifies as AFs raping BCs, but I am well aware that BCs are not wtfpwnmobiles that automatically win a fight against anything smaller than them. I am suggesting that they are too cost effective for what they can do.

Refreshing Lemon-Lime~
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#9 - 2012-02-10 23:22:19 UTC
Sprite Can wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sprite Can wrote:
@Zhilia Mann: I'm even sure how to acknowledge that.

@Lyrrashae: Would you like to give some reasons as to why I might be incorrect, rather than (poorly) attempting to insult me?


They say a picture says a thousand words. I figure a video ought to say more, so here's a video of me raping BCs in AFs: https://vimeo.com/35642474

-Liang


I fail to see how "Drake/Harpy/Harpy/Kestrel/Firetail vs Brutix/Cane" qualifies as AFs raping BCs, but I am well aware that BCs are not wtfpwnmobiles that automatically win a fight against anything smaller than them. I am suggesting that they are too cost effective for what they can do.


The last fight:
Harpy/Jaguar/Dramiel/Vengeance/Firetail/Hurricane vs 2 claw/2 wolf/2 slicer/ishkur/3 stabber fleet/vexor navy/ferox/tornado/raven/20+ Ivy League. Yeah, those BCs are totally overpowered there. P

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#10 - 2012-02-10 23:48:58 UTC
I don't have any fancy charts or graphs, but I think the tier 2 BC's are all fine. Ok, so I would like the drake to take a small nerf, but if my only options are to leave tier 2's the way they are or to nerf drakes and canes (prob into the ground cus that's what happens when people whine about stuff being OP when it's working) buff the harbinger (WTF) and buff the myrm (just don't try to fight on a gate with GCC cus your drones die), I say to leave them be.

So tier 2 BC's are all but fine imho.

Tier 1 BC's are what I expect out of them: they are cheaper than tier 2's and fill roles nicely without stepping on toes of tier 2 BC's.

The real problem isn't BC's as much as it is cruisers. I thought obvious need for cruiser rebalancing was obvious Roll

Solo Rifter since 2009
Sprite Can
#11 - 2012-02-10 23:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sprite Can
Buffing Cruisers might be a better option. Cost is the only thing separating BCs from Cruisers atm, and to any player with a steady income it's a very negligible difference when the vast superiority of the BCs is taken into consideration.

Buffing agility, speed and scan res seems like the obvious solution, however it also creates issues with Cruisers bleeding into the territory of Frigates.

Refreshing Lemon-Lime~
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#12 - 2012-02-10 23:52:41 UTC
Sprite Can wrote:
Buffing Cruisers might be a better option. Cost is the only thing separating BCs from Cruisers atm, and to any player with a steady income it's a very negligible difference when the vast superiority of the BCs is taken into consideration.


I would love to see some fitting buffs to cruisers.... :D

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#13 - 2012-02-11 00:21:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahrieman
Sprite Can wrote:
Buffing Cruisers might be a better option. Cost is the only thing separating BCs from Cruisers atm, and to any player with a steady income it's a very negligible difference when the vast superiority of the BCs is taken into consideration.

Buffing agility, speed and scan res seems like the obvious solution, however it also creates issues with Cruisers bleeding into the territory of Frigates.


This thread is going places now Big smile

See, even I can show enough restraint to add content and not troll 24/7. Well, maybe not this post though...

EDIT: Wanted to add that frigs should still be able to get under cruisers guns if they aren't fit to deal with frigs. IMO, this should be a primary consideration when looking at rebalancing cruisers and should help to not nerf frigs by proxy.

Solo Rifter since 2009
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-02-11 00:25:44 UTC
Any issues with tier 2 BC's being too good is down to the tier system itself.

Tier 1 BC's vs Cruisers aren't too bad (ignoring the fact only 4/5 crusiers are worth flying), but CCP in their great wisdom decided instead of making the new BC's just take on different roles, they decided to stick with the tiers and buff their EHP, slots and fitting as well.

The only way to really solve the balance issues now would be to homogenise the entire class stats-wise, and simply differentiate with roles (bonuses/hardpoints etc).

Thankfully, they somewhat sidestepped doing that for the tier 3's (although, they're too capable and step on BS's shoes. They should have been PG/CPU limited to not fit a full rack of top tier guns, or been hardpoint limited to 5/6 guns).
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#15 - 2012-02-11 01:07:58 UTC
I for one personally like my cyclone and look forward to flying a ferox. Tier 1's may not fit different "roles" per say, but they have differnt slot layouts, different bonuses, and different weapon options than their tier 2 counterparts. Prophecy gets a little shafted when comparing tier 1's to tier 2's, but for the most part, I have no complaint with the tier system as it applies to BC's.

As for tier 3's stepping on BS roles: Yes, sniping BS's got hurt by the introduciton of tier 3's, but tier 3's are glass cannons. They don't tank well, and are more succesptable to diaf than the tier 2's and even more so than BS's. Even with logi support, it's hard to fit enough buffer to a tier 3 (to compete against BS's) without gimping the fit.

Solo Rifter since 2009
Sprite Can
#16 - 2012-02-11 01:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sprite Can
Imo Tier 3s are balanced well. It's the tier 2s and to a lesser extent tier 1s that are an issue. A Brutix outclasses a Thorax is every possible role imaginable, for example. (And arguably, a Hurricane outclasses both.)

Refreshing Lemon-Lime~
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-02-11 01:20:53 UTC
Cruisers need, at the very least, a buff to their mobility. Hurricanes being as fast or more so than most T1 cruisers is completely ridiculous, the gap needs to be wider.
Noisrevbus
#18 - 2012-02-11 01:30:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
The OP is both right and wrong.

Yes, this is a problem that encompass all of the BC, not just the one or two most appearant examples.

No, the answer is not to individually, time-consumingly, tweak and balance each ship. They are quite well balanced in-class and among classes looking at sheer on-grid performance.

The real problem resides in the fact that despite the ships cost almost 10x as much as a Cruiser, with insurance, they cost essentially the same as a Cruiser (and the added training-time is negliable). Incidentally, that also mean they cost next to nothing in the larger scheme of things.

People fly them due to cost-efficiency, not kp-efficiency (kp- stands for kill-per, by the way). The things that are meant to beat "Drakes", they beat them until you begin to factor in scalability and numerical advantages rooted in cost-efficiency.

The best way to nerf all the BC is to nerf their resource-return and nerf the incentive to put as many as possible of them in any given system.

Nerf the disease, not the symptoms.
Sprite Can
#19 - 2012-02-11 01:33:52 UTC
Noisrevbus pretty much nailed it on the head. A nerf to their cost efficiency is still a nerf, and it's probably the most logical one.

Cruisers definitely still need looking at, however.

(On an unrelated note, great avatar Nois)

Refreshing Lemon-Lime~
Medude
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-02-11 01:39:24 UTC
Ahhhhhh show me on the doll where where the naughty drake touched you!
123Next pageLast page