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CCP - Regarding Medium Rails
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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#41 - 2012-02-06 19:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Brutix, 250mm railguns: 658 dps. Optimal 18, Falloff 15 km
3x magstabs, no tracking enhancers, hammerhead II's
EHP: 47k

Hurricane: 425 autocannon II: 729 dps. Optimal 1.9. Falloff 20km
3x gyros, 2x tracking enhancers (best case scenario), 1x hammerhead II, 4x hobgoblin IIs
EHP: 50k
2 empty high slots (usually reserved for energy neutralizers)

DPS of Brutix is better past 8 km.

With assault missiles on Cane: Brutix dps is better at 12 km.

So OP is fundamentally wrong.

You can talk tracking all you want, but for nanoboats you're fighting outside scram range if you can, and there the rail Brutix clearly outperforms and autocannon Hurricane.

FINALLY, Brutix is Tier 1 BC, Hurricane is Tier 2 BC.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#42 - 2012-02-07 08:58:00 UTC
Rails are not that bad, but for some reason they are still missing something... In my opinion the rails would benefit from having twice the alpha they have now, while artillery gets a little less in return for better dps.
Then ofcourse CCP still should look into the tracking of autocannons and the fall-off bonus from tracking enhancers.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-02-07 20:06:06 UTC
For me it is an ammo issue and more importantly the range penalties.

Looking at antimatter as commonly used ammo: -

Heavy Neutrons lose 2.2km of optimal

250mm Railguns lose 18km of optimal

This is a big difference, affects rails much more profoundly and accounts for the poor damage projection of medium rails.

Most people have seen the various posts over rebalancing ammo in regards to optimal/falloff, tracking, and Therm/ KIN components of damage and I would suggest that this is still required.
Even as a worst case boosting ammo optimal would benefit blasters only a little but may help make Rails more viable.

As for the Cane, Brutix comparision, a rail Brutix also out DPS a blaster version at around the same range, comparing short range and long range guns is not really accurate, look at the damage projection of an Arty Cane instead. Even then not everthing is based around Minmatar a Harb using scorch can project almost the same damage.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#44 - 2012-02-07 20:14:32 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:

As for the Cane, Brutix comparision, a rail Brutix also out DPS a blaster version at around the same range, comparing short range and long range guns is not really accurate.
The OP brought up the rail vs auto comparison and then stated the auto outhits the rail up to 20 km.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-02-07 22:03:55 UTC
So he did, apologies I did not read the posts in the middle, his first post seemed reasonable.

I have no problem with fittings, it is tight but it should be, I even have a few Thorax and Deimos rail fits.

It's not a DPS issue either, but I still feel they lack in comparison to Arty and missile sand their respective benefits, Beams could also be said to have similar issues.
Ryans Revenge
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-02-08 14:57:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryans Revenge
X Gallentius wrote:
Brutix, 250mm railguns: 658 dps. Optimal 18, Falloff 15 km
3x magstabs, no tracking enhancers, hammerhead II's
EHP: 47k

Hurricane: 425 autocannon II: 729 dps. Optimal 1.9. Falloff 20km
3x gyros, 2x tracking enhancers (best case scenario), 1x hammerhead II, 4x hobgoblin IIs
EHP: 50k
2 empty high slots (usually reserved for energy neutralizers)

DPS of Brutix is better past 8 km.

With assault missiles on Cane: Brutix dps is better at 12 km.

So OP is fundamentally wrong.

You can talk tracking all you want, but for nanoboats you're fighting outside scram range if you can, and there the rail Brutix clearly outperforms and autocannon Hurricane.

FINALLY, Brutix is Tier 1 BC, Hurricane is Tier 2 BC.



You're completely forgetting about tracking and using eft figures. Autocannons orbitting nano compared to rails orbitting nano. Autocannons win hands down.

Plus the fact that the comparison is minmatar damage close range weapons been compared with gallente long range weapons and they have near the same range? Fundamentally wrong. Rails still suck ass.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#47 - 2012-02-08 16:50:14 UTC
Ryans Revenge wrote:
You're completely forgetting about tracking and using eft figures. Autocannons orbitting nano compared to rails orbitting nano. Autocannons win hands down.

Plus the fact that the comparison is minmatar damage close range weapons been compared with gallente long range weapons and they have near the same range? Fundamentally wrong. Rails still suck ass.


Then don't orbit (people don't usually orbit in a nano-fight anyways). And again, OP brought up the rail/auto comparison.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#48 - 2012-02-10 19:21:56 UTC
BTW, IMO the argument should be: Do I want rails or arties on my Myrm?

NO DRONES FOR THIS COMPARISON

250mm rail Myrm:
58.7 kEHP, 342 dps, 1201 alpha (faction antimatter), cap: 2:01
18 + 15 opt+falloff

720mm artie Myrm
49 kEHP, 288 dps, 3166 alpha (faction EMP), cap: 4:19
15+22 opt+falloff

The difference in EHP is that the fitting requirement of 720mm arties is significantly higher than the fitting requirements for the 250mm railgun. More CDFE rigs in the rail Myrm.

Maybe somebody can come up with some better fits for comparison ?

DPS*EHP: Go with Rails - 40% better (better tracking as well)
Alpha : Go with Arties - 3x better

This is how it ought to be, IMO. YMMV.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#49 - 2012-02-10 19:39:37 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
BTW, IMO the argument should be: Do I want rails or arties on my Myrm?

NO DRONES FOR THIS COMPARISON

250mm rail Myrm:
58.7 kEHP, 342 dps, 1201 alpha (faction antimatter), cap: 2:01
18 + 15 opt+falloff

720mm artie Myrm
49 kEHP, 288 dps, 3166 alpha (faction EMP), cap: 4:19
15+22 opt+falloff

The difference in EHP is that the fitting requirement of 720mm arties is significantly higher than the fitting requirements for the 250mm railgun. More CDFE rigs in the rail Myrm.

Maybe somebody can come up with some better fits for comparison ?

DPS*EHP: Go with Rails - 40% better (better tracking as well)
Alpha : Go with Arties - 3x better

This is how it ought to be, IMO. YMMV.


This makes no sense without seeing the full fit-out for the ships, could you please oblige us and provide them?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#50 - 2012-02-10 20:27:39 UTC
Tried to keep the fits as similar as possible. Maybe somebody can come up with something better to compare.

[Myrmidon, 425mm]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

---

[Myrmidon, 720mm]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#51 - 2012-02-10 23:51:25 UTC
And there's your mistake. The gallente ship has 1175 powergrid to allow for the lower fitting needs of the railguns, while the hurricane has 1350 powergrid to also allow for the higher fitting requirement of the artillery. Obviously, trying to fit out a ship designed for lower fitting needs is going to fail. Just because the ship you've chosen has no bonuses for any given weapon type doens't mean that it can fit whatever it likes. You'll have the exact same issue trying to fit heavy beam lasers. So I'm afraid that your scenario is defunct by conception as if you allowed for the fitting requirements of the gun then you'd find the artillery fit is indeed better - once you stop giving up so many slots to cram in fitting modules. It also demonstrates how appalling the situation was before fitting requirements for rails was reduced, with a gallente ship unable to fit gallente weapons !! This situation still prevails, as stated many times, with only a couple of ships able to properly fit the 250's and the appropriate other mods.

As an alternative, fit both weapon systems to a hurricane, then manually adjust to remove the effect of the ship's bonuses. The artillery fit will still be better.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#52 - 2012-02-11 01:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Before the buff, it was pretty much a no brainer - fit the arties (rail gun fitting requirements were tougher, dps was lower). Now there's a choice.

Fit up an arty cane and let's see the difference. Compare it to arty Myrm or rail Myrm? Is the difference the weapon system or the ship?

dps of hammerhead II's is 238 dps. So Myrm overall dps with rails would be 342 + 238 = 580 dps.

Reminder on Brutix;
Brutix, 250mm railguns: 658 dps. Optimal 18, Falloff 15 km
3x magstabs, no tracking enhancers, hammerhead II's
EHP: 47k

(I'm getting something like 590 dps with a 48k EHP tank, 3960 alpha, but will let you supply a fit with your favorite specs)
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