Ships & Modules

After hearing complaints of people accusing CCP of preparing/already having neutered a large amount of Caldari ships... in all seriousness, if that happens, the Tengu is fine as it is. Only people not happy with the Tengu are the people not flying it.

EDIT: Oops, responded to fedFredbug's post, not the OP. The OP actually gets a +1.

Oh, look, yet another "Nurf Tnegoo bcuz I can't fly/kill it111!!!!" post.

Ever flown a 100MN T3? (Yeah, I know...rhetorical question, obviously)

They may have the speed of a runaway freight-train, but they also accelerate and turn like one. Use this--and a Rapier or two!--to your advantage.

Or better yet, accept that you are bad at EVE, biomass, and send all your ISK and stuffs to me.

For ****'s sake...

They get the same resists as their T2 counterparts, unless you use resist bonus subs...

...which 100MN Tengus don't.

Actually, yes, it does.

As well: I can't speak for Liang, but I for one, couldn't care less, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Next!

Why do I think the T3 ships needs a little adjustment? Because despite costing a fortune people still swear to them because they rarely lose them... They cost a lot but if you are smart they are pretty much "SAFE" to fly.

In 0.0 Tengu and Loki are super popular for a reason. You can catch them if you have the right tools ready but dammit it's not easy for most of the people running into them at it still requires some luck. Stating it's fine because tier 3 battlecruisers can kill them is wrong because those ships have some retardedly overpowered stats themself.

In Empire and lowsec The Legion and Proteus seems popular for pvp. Capable of nice dps/tank setups pilots are able to pick their fights and have such an evil tank/buffer they can usually kill someone and still disengage and dock/jump before exploding if they get caught in a bad situation. And if you get some Fleet boster and/or logi going it takes a lot of firepower to fight against T3 ships.
There is a reason why people don't even bother fighting back against wardecs in empire - a few strategic cruisers with backup requires a disproportionate amount of people if you don't want to use them yourself. Rather pointless and discouraging for the new people of Eve.

At least remove some powergrid from those ships to avoid the 100mn fits, dual plates etc... Yes it would ruin something many guys like but those people got other options and you can do amazing things even without 100mn AB and dual plating.

My first reaction was that it was great that a pilot with max relevant skills, and skilled at PvP, and willing to shell out 2-3 billion isk, should be able to field a ship that could take on the average small gang - with their (one) tackler, max dps ships, and lol throwaway Blackbird, or the like.

However, take a look at these statistics for one Tengu pilot, who posted a 48 minute video of his exploits on youtube, "xBOPOHx1":

This is a pilot about 41/2 years old, so about 55 milion SP or so. He probably has maxed relevant skills.

Until Tengu came out, he had a slightly above average killboard.

However, since then, look at this:

kills losses
Nov 2011 160 1
Dec 2011 149 0
Jan 2012 251 4
Feb 2012 78 1

His current efficiency: 99.95%

Chance of enemy survival: 1.27%

Most of these kills were with Tengus, although about 10% of them were in other ships.

These statistics make me a bit uneasy about my first reaction. Not all these small gangs were unprepared, below average, or lol fitted.

I'm sorry, but no pilot in EvE should have a 99.95% efficiency because of the neat ship he is flying.

I actually DO know exactly who you are. :)

-Liang

Would this have been an issue if the Tengu was released in Nov 2011? Probably not, as statistics is nothing more but statistics. For the vast majority of time the Tengu has been around Bopoh have not had awesome stats. Considering Fon and Prom pioneered the 100mn AB stuff in the summer of 2010, you can't really attribute that trend to his statistics either. I have no idea when the pilot in question began flying Tengus or why his activity and performance has peaked over the past few months, but nore do you. Selective statistics and all that - it's a fabrication of data to support your argument, not the other way around, an argument based on the data.

What we do know, is the important bit here...

... that 100mn AB setups (not the simpleton conclusion that it's "Tengus") are very strong for roaming PvP. Whoever referred to them as "the new nano" did a much better summary of this discussion than what was intended, i imagine. That is also the crunchpoint here, when the discussion starts being interesting, and where i am likely to be of a different oppinion than say, for example, Fon.

See, i was a supporter of the old nano nerf and alot of positive outcomes can still be traced back to those changes (more fluency in engagement ranges and a better rock-paper-scissor that has manifested itself quite well on the small-medium scale). Unlike most of you however, i also remember the discussion back then, and that i among alot of other people understood the nano nerf positive on the backdrop that a counter-balancing of numbers was necessary and iterated upon over the foreseeable future. It never was.

That's also why i have changed my stance a bit over the past few years, from an idealistic one to a more realistic one, regarding the balance of ships. I don't own a Titan or Mothership myself, nore do i currently own a Tengu (though i fly all races Tech III), but for whatever issues some resource-heavy concepts may have, they act as a balancing factor (some of the diminishing few) against the number-game that usurps all potential balance obtained after the nano nerf.

Have we had a better balance among ships? sure, but interactive roaming and emergent (small-scale) action has taken a much greater toll and the game has become worse. That also means, that if these cards are kept being dealt, i regret supporting the positive sides of the nano nerf. The existance of emergent roaming action is far more important than my ability to counter Drakes with Gallente - when numbers become the deciding factor and no one will fly Gallente anyway.

I see the same problems with this discussion tbh., and whatever re-balance is argued necessary should be understood against the backdrop of the current content context.

Rather one guy in an expensive Tengu than one hundred guys in inexpensive Hurricanes.

I wonder if this forum is capable enough to handle this side of the discussion - will anyone bite, and do so in an informed manner? In short, the interesting discussion at hand is the balance of small gang Tech III in trend of large gang BC.

I don't think the tengu is overpowered, I just think the other T3s need a little bit of buff.

I'd like to see the Loki be able to push a bit more DPS. Not sure what the other two really need, maybe a little more active tank on the proteus and less buffer.

I wouldn't object to a stronger active tank on the Proteus, but it needs a bigger cargo bay in that configuration.

-Liang