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Basilisk or Scimitar?
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
#21 - 2012-02-10 19:45:09 UTC
Sjugar wrote:
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I /OFFLINE


How the heck do you offline a rig? lol
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#22 - 2012-02-10 20:00:06 UTC
Roosterton wrote:

Out of sheer curiousity and not an attempt to be cynical, can you toss me a decent Scimi fit with 4 RR? I've always gone with 3 RR + MWD for 0.0 warfare blobs.


First, let me first tell you that I have nothing to say about what people should fly in massive blobs. It seems to me that the Basi would be superior because of buffer and staying power from the ETs. I could be wrong there and wouldn't argue very hard about it. I only speak for small gang warfare using 1-2 logis tops. Most of my experience is in low sec and WH space - though we roamed through sov and NPC 0.0 as well. I used it in ~5 man gangs against gangs up to 15-20 people.

As such - I lifted this fit out of a recent evemail I sent someone. I'm reasonably positive I have this Scimitar in my hangar right now (its very similar if its not this exact fit). It isn't the one featured in the neuting video - that one was rocking T1 rigs, 2 CPRs/2Nanos and a Domi large booster. IIRC fitting a MWD with 4 reps requires either a full rack of faction PDUs or a faction RCU + faction PDU + 2 beta CPRs. Either way the MWD is gonna jack your capacitor all to hell and back. Its also mostly unnecessary in small gang combat.

Anyway, this is the best competitor to the Basi that I am aware of (4 reps vs 5 reps, no cloak, slightly faster). Its strong against EM damage, but quite weak against Kin and Thm. IMO it tanks worse than the Basi for almost all practical fights.

[Scimitar, 4 Rep]
Dark Blood Power Diagnostic System
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

10MN Afterburner II
Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II

Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

For blob warfare, you probably shouldn't be flying an expensive active tanked logi. Or an active tanked anything at all.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-02-10 20:25:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
It seems to me that the Basi would be superior because of buffer and staying power from the ETs. I could be wrong there and wouldn't argue very hard about it.


Yeah, Basi pretty bad since 70% of DPS is from lasers or EMP firing projectiles. You can work the Basi into having a comparable tank vs. Scorch/EMP (2x LSEs, em+invuln, DC2) but you're giving up ECCM to do it. That's a pretty bad idea given that most major sov alliances use swarms of ECM drones against logis.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-02-10 21:11:09 UTC
Torothin wrote:
Scimmy is also more mobile and ideal for sheild buffed nano roams. Vaga's Cyn's, Drams, Nano Canes/harbi's and so on. Scimmy's are also ideal for LRH gangs. Overall in PvP the Scimmy is the more sought after logistic for shield gangs.




Its also sought after for major fleet engagements.

No needing a cap chains is a SERIOUS bonus when you aren't babysitting an amarr BS fleet.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#25 - 2012-02-10 21:43:38 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
It seems to me that the Basi would be superior because of buffer and staying power from the ETs. I could be wrong there and wouldn't argue very hard about it.


Yeah, Basi pretty bad since 70% of DPS is from lasers or EMP firing projectiles. You can work the Basi into having a comparable tank vs. Scorch/EMP (2x LSEs, em+invuln, DC2) but you're giving up ECCM to do it. That's a pretty bad idea given that most major sov alliances use swarms of ECM drones against logis.


People also say that 70% of the damage in low sec is EM damage - and I happen to know for fact that metric is total bullshit. But, 0.0 has all those alpha -cat fleets so it might be more true in the blobfests there.

For what its worth, I took the liberty of looking at your last ~100 kills or so and most of those died to Kin/Thm/Exp and were dealing Kin/Thm/Exp. In fact, most of the Minnie ships you've killed weren't even carrying EMP (!!). Not that I doubt you are totally right and all damage in 0.0 is EM damage....

/shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Torothin
Crimson Dawn Enterprises
#26 - 2012-02-10 22:10:51 UTC
I know I'm 100% right when I say that the Scimmy is the go to logi in Sheild buffed roams. especially small scale roams. No questions asked.
axxeessee
Trade and Supplies Co.
#27 - 2012-02-10 22:11:48 UTC  |  Edited by: axxeessee
Liang Nuren wrote:
Arrigo Glokta wrote:

I kind of think 1 Scimitar OR multiple Basilisks. No experience to back this up - is this about right???


No. Quite the opposite in fact. :)

-Liang


Stop commenting on areas you have obviously no clue about.

Sitting on a gate cloaked baiting bads is not the only thing there is to this game, im sure you are an expert in this domains but there is a lot more thing to do in eve than to stay in the same system.

The fact of the matter is there is two big possibilities of (viable) shield fleets

Alpha Mael (or rokh) fleets : Basis are usually the way to go, they put out more reps, they can stay with the mael, they got a better tank.

Nano fleets : your logi NEEDS to keep up with your fleet (stay behind it), the scimmy is the only ship able to do that in an efficient way.


These are the 2 big shield fleet doctrines, and the situations where you use each of the shield logis. Of course you can always bend the rules and go out with a brawling shield gang, but im talking optimal here.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#28 - 2012-02-10 22:23:27 UTC
axxeessee wrote:

Sitting on a gate cloaked baiting bads is not the only thing there is to this game, im sure you are an expert in this domains but there is a lot more thing to do in eve than to stay in the same system.


I don't actually fly a Logi in Amamake. It tends to pollute the waters and make people not want to come here and fight us. :)

Quote:

The fact of the matter is there is two big possibilities of (viable) shield fleets
...
These are the 2 big shield fleet doctrines, and the situations where you use each of the shield logis. Of course you can always bend the rules and go out with a brawling shield gang, but im talking optimal here.


This is... not quite right. You swapped the word ordering in the second to last sentence:
"These are the 2 big shield fleet doctrines..." should read "These are the 2 big fleet shield doctrines..."

I know its a subtle difference that you probably don't understand, but there you have it. Also: I try not to talk about areas of the game I don't actually play in. As such, I wouldn't want to say what the best strategy for RRing someone that's getting instapopped is.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-02-11 04:44:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Liang Nuren wrote:
People also say that 70% of the damage in low sec is EM damage - and I happen to know for fact that metric is total bullshit. But, 0.0 has all those alpha -cat fleets so it might be more true in the blobfests there.

For what its worth, I took the liberty of looking at your last ~100 kills or so and most of those died to Kin/Thm/Exp and were dealing Kin/Thm/Exp. In fact, most of the Minnie ships you've killed weren't even carrying EMP (!!). Not that I doubt you are totally right and all damage in 0.0 is EM damage...


Most of the BRs are ****** up because the guys we were fighting killed very little beyond dictors. In the fight against IRC, it was basically a mish-mash of **** at first (lol mixed fleet) then they reshipped into Tempests, mostly firing EMP against our logis then our Gilas, then finally our sentries. We had no dics or hics and only two total points in fleet, so they bailed.

Against Goons, I dunno what most of their Canes were doing, but their Drakes weren't killing anything except the two ships outside the firewall.

The WTF stn fight/carrier kill was strictly them being shy about aggroing, I don't believe they killed anything, especially not firing Kin. That about covers my last 100 medium-gang kills.

Meanwhile, the last time we actually flat out welped a Muninn fleet (as in losing a bunch of Scimitars) , it was to -A-'s MPL Oracles skullfucking us on their station. Pretty poor fight all and all, but we didn't lose any logis in the initial kite, it was all when we were sucked to 0 on a POCO right as their dictor landed =/
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#30 - 2012-02-11 05:26:14 UTC
EM is not the favorite damage type of myself (almost exclusively minnie pilot) or most other minnie pilots I know. PP is the way to go for minnie and has been for awhile. If you want to go back to 2009, I'm sure we can find lots of projectiles firing EMP...

I am content with people that keep wanting to adhere to a doctrine that says "Minmatar only shoot EMP and Barrage." You will just be making my work easier for me when we meet.

Solo Rifter since 2009
Lili Lu
#31 - 2012-02-11 06:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Ok, aside from all the debate in this thread over solo logi or blob logi one big problem I see with every fit that has been posted is no eccm makes you a sad panda logi pilot. This goes whether lone logi or in a large fleet. If you are jammed, and jammed easily without an eccm, you are worthless to your fleet.

Also, if you are in a large fleet action you need more buffer/resists and likely have many logis in fleet so 4 large reppers is not as critical. The buffer is necessary for any chance to survive being primaried. One can downgrade the 4th high on a scimi to a smaller shield transfer that will fit or put something useful like a small hull rep for patching up during lulls in the fighting. One can also carry some armor bots for the same purpose (unfortunately no hull bots in the game Sad)

As for between scimi and basi, iirc that while the Basi can power and fit 4 large transfers more easily, it suffers more trying to fit an eccm and the same tank as a scimi, aside from the relative lack of mobility and speed of the scimi. Been a while since I've had to fit a Basi. Also the sig of a Scimi can be kept relatively small to that of a Basi which helps for surviving bomb damage.

There are couple situatoins where Basis have an advantage. Pos repping, again because it's quite easy to power 4 large transfers on the Basi due to the energy transfers. Also, at logi 5 your second energy transfer is free to send to other ships. But of course this is more relevant to Amarr laser boats and thus more useful on a guardian.

Speaking of Logis in general, the Oneiros changes were great for large fleet oneiros. Can fit a better tank now. Cap transfer is blessing and a curse for logi pilots. Regardless, as a solo or cap-paring logi you absolutely whoud be fitting eccm.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-02-11 14:06:19 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
It seems to me that the Basi would be superior because of buffer and staying power from the ETs. I could be wrong there and wouldn't argue very hard about it.


Yeah, Basi pretty bad since 70% of DPS is from lasers or EMP firing projectiles. You can work the Basi into having a comparable tank vs. Scorch/EMP (2x LSEs, em+invuln, DC2) but you're giving up ECCM to do it. That's a pretty bad idea given that most major sov alliances use swarms of ECM drones against logis.


People also say that 70% of the damage in low sec is EM damage - and I happen to know for fact that metric is total bullshit. But, 0.0 has all those alpha -cat fleets so it might be more true in the blobfests there.

For what its worth, I took the liberty of looking at your last ~100 kills or so and most of those died to Kin/Thm/Exp and were dealing Kin/Thm/Exp. In fact, most of the Minnie ships you've killed weren't even carrying EMP (!!). Not that I doubt you are totally right and all damage in 0.0 is EM damage....

/shrug

-Liang



Depends on the doctrine you are fighting.

Amarr BS, Geddons/Hellcats EM
Alpha Meal/Baddon, explosive...most likely..but anything goes
Drakes/Tengus Kinetic

General roaming, omni, though you don't want a defined hole, you'll run into a counter fit every time.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-02-13 22:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
Arrigo Glokta wrote:
Hey hey,

An Alt of mine is currently flying an Onerios. Looking to get into one of the 2 Shield Repping Logis next, but not sure which one to go for....

Currently only got Logistics IV but half way to V.

She will be the only logi pilot in our small fleet. With that in mind, it seems that the Scimitar would be better.

I kind of think 1 Scimitar OR multiple Basilisks. No experience to back this up - is this about right???

Thanks


To quickly answer the op's question, for small gangs a Scimitar is almost always superior to a Basilisk. Scimitars are much faster and more agile than Basilisks, which is important for small gangs that rely on mobility. Scimitars are also independent of one another. If one Scimitar goes down or is jammed, the other Scimitars' repping power is not reduced, whereas a Basilisk becomes useless if its cap buddy is jammed for more than two cycles or goes down completely.

That is not to say that a triad of Basilisks wouldn't be effective in a small gang. Just bear in mind that a Basilisk is less mobile than a Scimitar, and requires a cap buddy, which can technically be any ship in the fleet with a large energy transfer, but in practice has to be another Basilisk due to range issues. Ideally you want a minimum of three Basilisks, in case something happens to one of them.

If you're running a solo logi, then either Basilisk or Scimitar can work, although a Scimitar tends to be superior in that role, for the above reasons. It's possible to fit a viable solo Basilisk with a decent tank and repping output, however. It's certainly possible to run a solo logi for a small gang, but the logi pilot should know what he's doing, else he will die very quickly.

For big alliance-level fleets, ask the more-experienced Logistics pilots in your alliance which ship they prefer. Scimitars are the current FOTM, and will probably remain so. Basilisks can be useful in battleship fleets, especially due to their heavier tank and ability to provide cap to fleet members, but their cap chain is very vulnerable to ECM, and they're very slow if using an afterburner; an MWD-ft Basilisk has its own issues -- usually reduced sensor strength and the obvious signature bloom, and it's still slow.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-02-14 02:39:02 UTC
Alice Katsuko wrote:
For big alliance-level fleets, ask the more-experienced Logistics pilots in your alliance which ship they prefer. Scimitars are the current FOTM, and will probably remain so. Basilisks can be useful in battleship fleets, especially due to their heavier tank and ability to provide cap to fleet members, but their cap chain is very vulnerable to ECM, and they're very slow if using an afterburner; an MWD-ft Basilisk has its own issues -- usually reduced sensor strength and the obvious signature bloom, and it's still slow.


I hate ABing logis for general purpose BS/BC/HAC fleets; every single time we were mandated to fly one to support BS, we'd wind up fighting Abaddons and losing 2x as many logis as we had to, simply because they were so much slower clearing a Hellcat's 70km murderball. Around 4-5 logis every time they'd get a warp to zero on us or we'd cyno into a system anywhere except a POS.
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