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War Declaration Proposal: Security Nullification Array

Author
Tidurious
Blatant Alt Corp
#21 - 2012-02-10 05:38:50 UTC
No. For many of the reasons listed above.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-02-10 05:40:45 UTC
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
If an attacker fails to engage their war targets, then they've wasted the war dec fee and the corp or alliance that was dec'ed can resume business as usual. I don't see why this is needed.

Kelduum views everything through his WSOP. He's got to the point where he sees his WSOP as actual game mechanics and creates rules to alleviate the burden of his own WSOP.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#23 - 2012-02-10 07:39:34 UTC
Terrible Idea. Fortunately clear enough in it's intent I didn't even have to read past the first few paragraphs to foretell its terribleness... For that at least I thank you.
Kahz Niverrah
Distinguished Johnsons
#24 - 2012-02-10 12:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahz Niverrah
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Kelduum views everything through his WSOP. He's got to the point where he sees his WSOP as actual game mechanics and creates rules to alleviate the burden of his own WSOP.

Some of the WSOP is just common sense. Be logged into comms, watch local, don't go AFK in space, don't autopilot, etc. The rest seems like overkill. I don't know why anyone would dec the uni, but if they're attracting wardecs why should EVE wardec mechanics change to protect one corporation that fails to defend itself?

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.

Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#25 - 2012-02-10 13:39:53 UTC
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
Some of the WSOP is just common sense. Be logged into comms, watch local, don't go AFK in space, don't autopilot, etc. The rest seems like overkill.
Which bit specifically? The ship/fitting restrictions?

Bearing in mind very many new players will rush into the biggest, most expensive ship they can, without even being able to fit the right size guns, when they would be much better off getting some experience flying something smaller or more effective for them.

Of course, we do have exceptions for those who have proven themselves.


Anyway, the SNA is the result of a thought experiment with intention of (in the order of your choice):
1. Allow third parties to end a war without warmups/cooldowns, ie: Mercs.
2. Provide some element of risk for an 'attacker', so they are a little more likely to choose their targets well.
3. Go beyond the 'Pay X ISK to end the war' solutions, as I don't really believe that throwing ISK at something is solution.
4. Eliminate the existing loopholes in the mechanics and build a fairly robust system which doesn't have any big holes in it.
5. Provide a new mechanic which can be used in interesting ways, such as cross-corp FFAs, 'Warp to me, its safe. Honest', etc.

I'm certainly not saying CCP should implement it immeduately, but its an alternative way of doing things, which would add a little complexity but a large potential for unusual interaction between players, which is what makes EVE special.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#26 - 2012-02-10 13:55:08 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
Things that promote or reward blobs are bad.

More news at nine. Roll


Yea.
Kelduum i don't like your idea to. Straight

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Kahz Niverrah
Distinguished Johnsons
#27 - 2012-02-10 14:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahz Niverrah
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Which bit specifically? The ship/fitting restrictions?

Bearing in mind very many new players will rush into the biggest, most expensive ship they can, without even being able to fit the right size guns, when they would be much better off getting some experience flying something smaller or more effective for them.

Of course, we do have exceptions for those who have proven themselves.

Yes, the ship and fitting restrictions were what I was referring to. It didn't seem like there was any room for negotiation in the rules. It's good you make exceptions.

There are some other questionable rules too, IMO, which I tried to address but it just ended up being a wall of text so I edited them out of my post.

Look, obviously my criticisms don't carry a lot of water as I've never been in the uni, but as an outsider looking in it looks like you are shooting yourselves in the foot, and instead of trying to improve your tactics, you're asking the game be changed globally to protect your corp (which I still don't think these changes would do). It's hard for people to consider this suggestion unbiased when uni has a long history of speaking out against wardecs placed against it. I get that it's part of your CSM platform to fix wardec mechanics, but I don't think it should be. Even if you're completely impartial on the topic you will appear biased. Stick to other issues.

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.

Reppyk
The Black Shell
#28 - 2012-02-10 14:58:28 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
4. Eliminate the existing loopholes in the mechanics and build a fairly robust system which doesn't have any big holes in it.
I already listed some and I'm not the only one, but feel free to not answer any of the questions in this thread.

Kahz Niverrah wrote:
Some faction frigates are cheaper then many T1 ships you do allow.
Navy fregates are 'allowed'.

Kelduum Revaan wrote:
1. Allow third parties to end a war without warmups/cooldowns, ie: Mercs.
Mercs have already no cooldown, but this is something I already said in your other thread and you didn't answer.

Kahz Niverrah wrote:
Look, obviously my criticisms don't carry a lot of water as I've never been in the uni, but as an outsider looking in it looks like you are shooting yourselves in the foot, and instead of trying to improve your tactics, you're asking the game be changed globally to protect your corp.
+1.
EVEuni could be on Sisi like someone else said, or just using channels and not a corp/alliance.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#29 - 2012-02-10 15:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Kelduum Revaan
Reppyk wrote:
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
1. Allow third parties to end a war without warmups/cooldowns, ie: Mercs.
Mercs have already no cooldown, but this is something I already said in your other thread and you didn't answer.

Yes, however the problem is that you are joining the clients corporation, and therefore you are limited to fighting their attackers, and of course this doesn't scale very well past a few people and its not exactly elegant - does the defending corp still have enough spaces to support all the people they need to, and so on.


Reppyk wrote:
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
Look, obviously my criticisms don't carry a lot of water as I've never been in the uni, but as an outsider looking in it looks like you are shooting yourselves in the foot...
+1.
EVEuni could be on Sisi like someone else said, or just using channels and not a corp/alliance.


I'll quote what Darian said here in reply back in the other thread:
Darian Reymont wrote:
We do indeed use the test server for some of our training, but it is not always a viable or even desirable option when you're dealing with very new players. For starters, requiring everybody to set up access to Sisi would be another barrier to entry for many new players trying EVE for the first time and, depending on the length between snapshots, a new player may not have the skills relevant to a particular class or event, if they even have a character available at all.

Add to that, of course that its rather difficult to hold PvP related things in SiSi when there's nobody there to fight.

The channel-only thing is sill a possibility and we have tried this in a limited fashion in the past, but there are a lot of things the Uni does whichrequire the corporation infrastructure (hangars, wallets, etc) and wouldn't work at any significant scale without an incredible amount of automation which isn't possible (such as handing out ISK to people after they buy a skillbook), not to mention the community element, which is very important, would likely take a significant hit.
Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#30 - 2012-02-10 15:54:47 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
4. Eliminate the existing loopholes in the mechanics and build a fairly robust system which doesn't have any big holes in it.
I already listed some and I'm not the only one


Maybe I've missed some, but I'm not aware of any barring the 'they run away' or 'the shield is back' ones, the first of all would be fixed with someone outside able to web/bump them (plus, the general suggestion, although it may not be covered in the document fully, is that they would still be flagged for combat in the typical '15 min timer' way), and the second would also be relatively helpful with with someone else there to provide some DPS.

Of course, none of the numbers are specific, and they can all be changed/adjusted/tweaked to fit as needed.
Rattle3Snak3
Project Omega Industries
Fraternity.
#31 - 2012-02-10 17:01:00 UTC
<--- Newbie

Ofc, I can't falsify ideas thrown around by Pro's here regarding the current warfare. Though I do understand to some extent the annoyance it can cause for someone who wishes to war dec someone.

My 2 Cents, have "some sort" of a point system which will allow the Corp to reach a status that will allow them to take part in High Sec wars. The points can be collected through various (assumptious) factors such as corps participation to PvP and other activities of such sort.

This allows corps with a level of maturity status be able to dec wars on corps that are "mature" enough (according to the point status) to take part in war and cannot evade normally as they can atm.

This allows corp that do want to take part in high sec wars be easily visible to others who can go war against them or vice-versa. Allows newbie corps to train themselves and when they wish can work to earn the status of taking part in high sec wars.

This kinda eliminates newbies foolishly taking part in War and realizing the game and its players are too old for them to continue playing eve. AND/OR players that wish to learn before they get their head chopped off and never to bother to return to eve

Then again, my 2 cents.
Kahz Niverrah
Distinguished Johnsons
#32 - 2012-02-10 17:13:55 UTC
Rattle3Snak3 wrote:
My 2 Cents
Sounds like a PvP flagging system. I'll let you guess how that will be received.

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.

Rattle3Snak3
Project Omega Industries
Fraternity.
#33 - 2012-02-10 17:31:36 UTC
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
Rattle3Snak3 wrote:
My 2 Cents
Sounds like a PvP flagging system. I'll let you guess how that will be received.


lol

Well yes, like a PvP flagging system. Its just that all the players here assume they belong to the same skill set, same mentality, same age and/or equally skilled. And expect that everyone who joins in either be on their gaurd before reading 1000 pages of "How to Play Eve" and expect to fight with their Corp which is also expected to be at the same lvl as others are.

If the game was just mean for PvP, why bother having High Sec, Low Sec and Null. Just have them join and play a bloody FPS in submarines.
Kahz Niverrah
Distinguished Johnsons
#34 - 2012-02-10 17:35:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahz Niverrah
Rattle3Snak3 wrote:
Well yes, like a PvP flagging system. Its just that all the players here assume they belong to the same skill set, same mentality, same age and/or equally skilled. And expect that everyone who joins in either be on their gaurd before reading 1000 pages of "How to Play Eve" and expect to fight with their Corp which is also expected to be at the same lvl as others are.

If the game was just mean for PvP, why bother having High Sec, Low Sec and Null. Just have them join and play a bloody FPS in submarines.

I think it's your expectations that are out of line with what EVE is. Everything in this game exists to generate conflict between players and give them the tools to find their own resolutions. Nobody should be safe from conflict, ever. Even in high-sec. It's been this way for almost 9 years and it's not about to change.

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.

Rattle3Snak3
Project Omega Industries
Fraternity.
#35 - 2012-02-10 18:13:11 UTC
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
Nobody should be safe from conflict, ever. Even in high-sec.


I'm just going to leave to that.

It's like talking to a wall.

Kahz Niverrah
Distinguished Johnsons
#36 - 2012-02-10 18:16:06 UTC
Rattle3Snak3 wrote:
I'm just going to leave to that.

It's like talking to a wall.

No need for name calling. You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. You're just simply in the minority.

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.

ShipToaster
#37 - 2012-02-10 18:22:51 UTC
It seems PS was correct and your idea was capture the flag.

Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Allows a defender with superior forces to end a conflict.


This is an example of the de facto wardec immunity that I have already mentioned eve university are pushing for.

No to consensual PvP in any form.

.

ShipToaster
#38 - 2012-02-10 18:30:30 UTC
This is not really an objection but what is to stop me from creating a null zone in an incursion system, warping the fleet to it minus the logi, bubbling them and getting twenty billion in easy kills?

Rinse, repeat.

.

Reppyk
The Black Shell
#39 - 2012-02-10 18:57:21 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Yes, however the problem is that you are joining the clients corporation, and therefore you are limited to fighting their attackers, and of course this doesn't scale very well past a few people and its not exactly elegant - does the defending corp still have enough spaces to support all the people they need to, and so on.
Or "neutral" rr or a merc corp joining the alliance or neutral bumping or ganking or whatever.
About the "elegant" word well... You're the one that advices your corpmates to leave your corporation while at war. It doesn't sound that much "elegant" too.

Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Add to that, of course that its rather difficult to hold PvP related things in SiSi when there's nobody there to fight.
Or make the pvp part on TQ. The wardecs could even be welcomed.
I'm not saying that these are good ideas ; an alliance/corporation willing to teach the noobs is indeed the best solution. The current problem is that you're trying to run your alliance with different rules : you do not want uncensual pvp, you do not want "unfair" wardecs, and you're trying to do whatever you can to change it (including messing with the highsec sandbox, which will impact all the other corps/alliances).

Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Maybe I've missed some, but I'm not aware of any barring the 'they run away' or 'the shield is back' ones
My issue with the EHP ?
My issue with the shield regen ?
My issue with the prices ?

Kelduum Revaan wrote:
the first of all would be fixed with someone outside able to web/bump them
Your answer doesn't make sense. Did you really read what I said ? Webbing outside the bubble ?
You know what ? I'm going to offer you a pvp lesson.Note that just reading my last post should be enough to understand that problem, if you had that pvp experience.

EVEreppyversity !



Rattle3Snak3 wrote:
If the game was just mean for PvP
It is, as stated by the devs. Mind you, a long time ago there was no Concord to help you.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Rattle3Snak3
Project Omega Industries
Fraternity.
#40 - 2012-02-10 20:45:26 UTC
Reppyk wrote:

Rattle3Snak3 wrote:
If the game was just mean for PvP
It is, as stated by the devs. Mind you, a long time ago there was no Concord to help you.


I do believe you that at one point Concord wasn't there to help. But, if I am not mistaken, they are added to eliminate "Unfiltered PvP". I might have come out strong when I said "just mean't for PvP".