These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

High-sec POS - large guns?

Author
Violet Enchantress
Red Factory
#1 - 2012-02-10 11:44:52 UTC
Some people tell me not to bother with large guns for a high-sec POS as they cannot hit anything; others say that large guns can insta-pop battleships. Are large guns any use in a high-sec POS defence scenario?
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-02-10 12:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
Violet Enchantress wrote:
Some people tell me not to bother with large guns for a high-sec POS as they cannot hit anything; others say that large guns can insta-pop battleships. Are large guns any use in a high-sec POS defence scenario?


Large POS guns are ineffective vs. BS. They can be speedtanked and their sig size is larger than BS (so damage is lost). They are designed to shoot at dreads.

Considering the PG requirements and expected opposition, a mixture of small and medium POS guns are far better idea in high sec.

In low/null sec Larges are also debatable due to the following logic;

You cannot deploy capitals without major support (or a set of balls made of unobtainium). If someone wants your POS gone so badly that they do this - deploy caps *and* support - they will kill it no matter what you put around it. However, a stronger set of anti-BS guns might deter smaller subcap fleets. There might be a reason to put up larges but only as offline reserves, ready to be onlined for active gunned defense once the POS comes out of RF but they would be in addition to a normal set of subcap-targeting guns (and their spares).
Velicitia
XS Tech
#3 - 2012-02-10 13:38:52 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
... a mixture of small and medium POS guns are far better idea in high sec.


Keep in mind that small guns fit with DPS ammo (e.g. EMP/Phased Plasma, Multifreq, or Antimatter) generally won't reach outside the bubble... which is 30 KM for a large tower.

Now, Amarr and Minmatar get a range bonus to the guns, which helps ... but even there you're probably going to be using artillery/beam so you can reach out a little further than "10k from the shields".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2012-02-10 16:23:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Standard large turrets:
Signature Resolution = 1000 m (battleships get about half-damage, so might as well use a medium)

Faction large turrets:
Signature Resolution = 400m (battleships get full damage)

Faction large turrets tend to be pretty cheap, but I still don't recommend them as all large turrets take a HUGE amount of grid, and hisec towers are mostly Caldari which have minimal grid.

Like all POS defenses, they are also very weak unless being controlled by a gunner. In combination with a webifier they can be useful in this case.

As for range, with small turrets and range on an un-bonused tower, long-range versions are fine. It is the short-range versions that are affected.

* AutoCannons operate in falloff normally, as they have a very short optimal, so using high-damage ammo doesn't really hurt them much.
* Pulse Lasers have a decent optimal and a very short falloff, so they really are best with standard ammo. They are harder on grid than AutoCannons, and can only do EM & thermal damage.
* Blasters are useless as they will be in deep falloff at forcefield range. (Note: POS hybrids were not buffed like ship modules.)

I recommend using lasers on Amarr towers and projectiles on all other towers.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-02-10 18:14:26 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Standard large turrets:
Signature Resolution = 1000 m (battleships get about half-damage, so might as well use a medium)

Faction large turrets:
Signature Resolution = 400m (battleships get full damage)


Quite interesting disparity that I did not know about before. Proves you can learn something new every day...

POSes have so many things semi-broken or wacky that it needs a total overhaul... maybe in a year or two.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#6 - 2012-02-10 18:54:28 UTC
I read optimal range and activation proximity are calculated as from the tower, but tracking speed is calculated from the mod itself. Would it make sense to place faction small guns on the side opposite from the cluster of guns or jumpbridge you want them to defend? In this case I'm referring to using small guns as a deterrent or defense against bombers or tackling ceptors.

Lastly in the case of manned guns, the gunner's ship determines locking range. Is locking speed also determined by the gunner's ship?

Tau Cabalander wrote:
Standard large turrets:
Signature Resolution = 1000 m (battleships get about half-damage, so might as well use a medium)
Faction large turrets:
Signature Resolution = 400m (battleships get full damage)


That's ridiculous.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-02-10 19:18:11 UTC
POSes are designed for EvE around 2004-2005ish before the introduction of rigs when Cap ships had about 1/3 or less of their current EHP. Back in those days guns went inside the FF and a dread unlucky enough to get hit by a couple arties could die to the alpha.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#8 - 2012-02-10 19:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Reppyk
BULLSHIT DETECTED !

Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
They can be speedtanked and their sig size is larger than BS (so damage is lost).
Yes and no.
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Standard large turrets:
Signature Resolution = 1000 m (battleships get about half-damage, so might as well use a medium)
No !

These are wrong.
Turrets aren't missiles.

With 2 domination webs, a target will move with 0,1 % of its velocity. Let's call it "it doesnt move at all k thks bye". Tracking becomes irrevelant. Large guns have the best optimal/falloff.
The signature radius is not linked directly with the damage, ONLY THE CHANCE TO HIT.

td;dr large guns do 100% of their damage against tiny targets, if they hit, which is easy to do with the web pos modules.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Mike AntHunt
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#9 - 2012-02-10 19:34:09 UTC
Hello.

As far as large POS guns, they can only be useful in high sec if they are with the right setup and absolutely require other modules to be effective. Yes they were designed to kill dreadnaughts but I found a setup that will work well.

Requirements:

A starbase defense manager with the skill at level 4 or 5 ( 5 is obviosly better )

Modules: Stasis webification batteries and tracking arrrays plus the large turrets and (optional) warp scrambling battery

Knowledge of the target.


The way that the large guns can be effective is to assume control of 2 stasis web batteries, the warp scrambling batter and either 1 or two of the large guns. The tracking arrays will help with all of the turrets tracking speeds and atleat 2 are necessary. The gunner then needs to concentrate the fire on a single ship. the way that I normally do it is to throw the webs and warp scrambler on the ship first and let him slow down ( as webs take time to take effect ) and have velocity on the overview. When the velocity has been reduced to a manageable rate, then fir the two large turrets. These turrets should have high damage ammo in them Faction ammo if you can afford it. With this strategy, I have been able to hit an armor tanked megathron orbiting the POS for pretty good damage. The more gunners you have the better. The best use of the pos is to have 2-3 gunners operating the modules and concentrating fire to take out logisitcs first then high damage ships. Another good choice of a POS module is white noise generators to try to jam enemy logistics as well. And like others have said, a mixture of small and medium guns are a must. btw I hope you have deathstarred your POS ( put all unnecessary industry/labs offline and onlined all defenses ).

Have fun and test out these methods on corp members in expendable ships if you want. just make sure they are expendable.
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-02-10 21:28:15 UTC
Mike AntHunt wrote:
Hello.

As far as large POS guns, they can only be useful in high sec if they are with the right setup and absolutely require other modules to be effective. Yes they were designed to kill dreadnaughts but I found a setup that will work well.

Requirements:

A starbase defense manager with the skill at level 4 or 5 ( 5 is obviosly better )

Modules: Stasis webification batteries and tracking arrrays plus the large turrets and (optional) warp scrambling battery

Knowledge of the target.


The way that the large guns can be effective is to assume control of 2 stasis web batteries, the warp scrambling batter and either 1 or two of the large guns. The tracking arrays will help with all of the turrets tracking speeds and atleat 2 are necessary. The gunner then needs to concentrate the fire on a single ship. the way that I normally do it is to throw the webs and warp scrambler on the ship first and let him slow down ( as webs take time to take effect ) and have velocity on the overview. When the velocity has been reduced to a manageable rate, then fir the two large turrets. These turrets should have high damage ammo in them Faction ammo if you can afford it. With this strategy, I have been able to hit an armor tanked megathron orbiting the POS for pretty good damage. The more gunners you have the better. The best use of the pos is to have 2-3 gunners operating the modules and concentrating fire to take out logisitcs first then high damage ships. Another good choice of a POS module is white noise generators to try to jam enemy logistics as well. And like others have said, a mixture of small and medium guns are a must. btw I hope you have deathstarred your POS ( put all unnecessary industry/labs offline and onlined all defenses ).

Have fun and test out these methods on corp members in expendable ships if you want. just make sure they are expendable.


Tracking arrays never even worked. Thats why they were pulled from the market.

Regardless of that, a ton of med guns that shred BS > a single large gun, that MIGHT be able to hit something. If you can get ahold of enough mods, that were pulled from the game years ago, and were likely never fixed.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#11 - 2012-02-10 21:49:58 UTC
Mike AntHunt wrote:
Hello.
[...]
Modules: Stasis webification batteries and tracking arrrays plus the large turrets and (optional) warp scrambling battery
Hello,
Mister 2005.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#12 - 2012-02-10 22:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Reppyk wrote:
BULLSHIT DETECTED !

Regardless, unless you have a gunner you are not getting a web and a large turret on the same target at the same time, so they are useless on automatic. You are better off with 2 mediums or 4 smalls than a large.

Sure, feel free to keep a few large anchored but offline for use when gunners are available.

P.S. If anyone wants to have fun with math: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#13 - 2012-02-11 00:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Reppyk
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Regardless, unless you have a gunner you are not getting a web and a large turret on the same target at the same time, so they are useless on automatic.
I don't get it.
You have 2 webs and 1 large gun.

10 guys are attacking your pos.

There is still a (tiny) chance that the 3 mods will shoot on the same guy for 1/2mn (I'm not saying that using a large gun is a good idea, just pointing that it could hit something hard).

EDIT : and some faction modules have a 400m sig resolution btw, which is very awesome.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#14 - 2012-02-11 01:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Reppyk wrote:
There is still a (tiny) chance that the 3 mods will shoot on the same guy for 1/2mn (I'm not saying that using a large gun is a good idea, just pointing that it could hit something hard).

Are you going to base your POS defense on a tiny chance that you get lucky and alpha a ship so it cannot be repped, and the loss demoralizes the attackers so they stand down?

And if they don't get demoralized, hope that they don't orbit and primary those few large turrets (they take a lot of grid so you won't have many) and incapacitate them first.

The best defense in hisec is to make a long and boring job much longer and more boring.
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-02-11 02:50:09 UTC
Hum maybe 10webs-5 guns. Not going to help much with large gangs, but I'm not sure anything is really going to help much with large gangs.
Brock Nelson
#16 - 2012-02-11 03:07:11 UTC
I've been involved with a few POS take downs that have Large Gun onlined, and yes, they can insta pop a battleship.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom

Reppyk
The Black Shell
#17 - 2012-02-11 11:11:47 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Are you going to base your POS defense on a tiny chance that you get lucky and alpha a ship so it cannot be repped, and the loss demoralizes the attackers so they stand down?
No (I already said that large guns are a bad idea).

But 1 domination large artillery battery with faction ammos... Well they will think of it twice (11k alpha).

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
#18 - 2012-02-11 13:13:44 UTC
Put up hundred + ECM with some small and medium arty/beams

Noone wants to take down a pos like that.

Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524