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How have incursions affected the usefulness of doing other things for isk in highsec?
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Shian Yang
#41 - 2012-02-09 02:35:28 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Incursions do NOT need reductions they need Vanguards to be force completed and increased pay for higher sites. Thats all. No nukes.


One must admire the might of Sansha's Nation. They have sustained heavy losses and yet continue their assault. Is there an end in sight for New Eden?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#42 - 2012-02-09 02:52:57 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
How about nerfing sanctum and other nullsec raw isk income?
They already did that, remember?
Quote:
Incursions do NOT need reductions they need Vanguards to be force completed and increased pay for higher sites.
Vanguards needs their payout adjusted to match their difficulty. More pay is certainly not needed at any level.
Endeavour Starfleet
#43 - 2012-02-09 03:21:25 UTC
They have not seriously nerfed nullsec raw income. The sanctum nerfs got reversed and are paying quite well.

I never called for Vanguards to get increased pay. You know higher sites mean assaults and HQs.

Yet the Vanguards do not need reduced pay. With a requirement to clear the field as well to get payout it will reduce the income enough to warrant going into the now higher paying sites. This will mean more mixed fleets which benefits those who normally sit for hours wanting for invites because most FCs during prime time are Vanguard shiny FCs.
Zircon Dasher
#44 - 2012-02-09 04:48:47 UTC
Shian Yang wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Incursions do NOT need reductions they need Vanguards to be force completed and increased pay for higher sites. Thats all. No nukes.


One must admire the might of Sansha's Nation. They have sustained heavy losses and yet continue their assault. Is there an end in sight for New Eden?


LolLolLol

Could you imagine the flood of "INCURSIONS R TEH BROKIN!!!!!!" threads in the forums if the Nation took a couple weeks vacation?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-02-09 06:39:10 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
They have not seriously nerfed nullsec raw income. The sanctum nerfs got reversed and are paying quite well.
lmfao

why are we even letting npc corp posters in this thread?
Umega
Solis Mensa
#46 - 2012-02-09 08:00:11 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Just will note that CCP can trim how many ISK are influxed into economy by incursions in a simple manner, as less incursion spawns = less income (opposed to "on demand" Lvl4s). I kinda wonder wether Dr. Whatshisname, the resident economist, suggested developers how many incursion should spawn per unit of time, in order to balance them in the big picture.

So, either players are cheating Dr. Whatshisname by abusing the incursions faucet, or CCP spoiled it and incursions are being spawn too often, or incursions already were factored and it's not them who cause the inflation.


Less incursion spawns = Complete giveaway to shiny runners.

How about nerfing sanctum and other nullsec raw isk income? A simple "trim" to bounty payout would fix inflation right? Too bad it will screw over those who don't run them all day.

Incursions do NOT need reductions they need Vanguards to be force completed and increased pay for higher sites. Thats all. No nukes.

Quote:
130 million ISK would buy you 90 days gametime (1.4m ISK/day)
moving onwards a few years 250 million would buy you 30 days gametime (8.3m ISK/day)
and today: 500m gets you 30 days gametime (16.6m ISK/day)


Ok let's just make this clear. The days of 250M plex are OVER. They will not come back because few will buy plex to sell at that low price. You can nuke incursions and any other direct income all you want. However, Eventually they will just stop because the RL value is far less.

Does this rather screw over newer players? Yes... However, Nobody should expect to be able to reasonably PLEX their accounts for atleast the first half year. Telling newer players that they can reasonably PLEX within the first month only harms the perception of EVE.


I don't know where to begin.

More time that null/low pilots spend time using their highsec Incursion alts is a pretty big deal and in itself shows issues with risk/reward ratio.. and it is an actual problem. This should be a clue.. but you obviously don't know.

Incursions might not need pay reductions, but they need balancing so that sites are more adjusted to difficulty and those that contribute to a site get something instead of fleet that contributes majority gets all. For something in highsec.. when only the 'fatcat' shinest ship fleets can gather the most and completely bone over newer members.. isn't that contradicting to some of you highsec only nutjobs that wish for a pristine and all welcoming happy highsec?

It's ok.. I know the vast majority of the 'highsec only hippie hug club' is all about 'me' and doesn't care in the slighest about the overall health and growth of the entire game.. only what their hands touch matter.

The fact you believe 250m PLEX days are over because people won't sell at those prices should be a rather strong clue that indeed, Inflation has taken place and you just admitted as much. It's not like the trade volume of PLEX as been on an ever increasing growth since Incursion release.. surely there is no connection.

Be better off trying to change the subject, or convince ppl that neutral RR is broken and off-grid boosting has caused people to get extra alts per rl person and that is causing the majority of PLEX inflation.. but where is all the cash coming from for more people to take part in this than before....

Both have certainly become a growing problem in all sigments of EVE. I don't expect much to change.. more alts per rl person = more rl money for CCP.

Nanoribbon median trade volume and price is another clue to this whole equation that hits all my points if you think about it.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Endeavour Starfleet
#47 - 2012-02-09 08:37:37 UTC
Quote:
I don't know where to begin.

More time that null/low pilots spend time using their highsec Incursion alts is a pretty big deal and in itself shows issues with risk/reward ratio.. and it is an actual problem. This should be a clue.. but you obviously don't know.


Actually it shows many nullsec folks are using incursions to make funds while their mains are fighting or using Incursions to avoid CTAs. Balanced. And helps reduce the influence of nullsec overlords over their members. Forcing them to offer more carrots for the effect they want.

Quote:
Incursions might not need pay reductions, but they need balancing so that sites are more adjusted to difficulty and those that contribute to a site get something instead of fleet that contributes majority gets all. For something in highsec.. when only the 'fatcat' shinest ship fleets can gather the most and completely bone over newer members.. isn't that contradicting to some of you highsec only nutjobs that wish for a pristine and all welcoming happy highsec?

It's ok.. I know the vast majority of the 'highsec only hippie hug club' is all about 'me' and doesn't care in the slighest about the overall health and growth of the entire game.. only what their hands touch matter.


I have already called for Vanguard sites to be force completed so that the higher ends sites will get more attention and that ought to help with more mixed fleets.

As for the health of the game. I do very much care. I care that now incursions provide an alternative to the fall asleep LVL4s and the fall asleep gatecamps and moon goo invasions of nullsec. I care that incursions are contributing to the health of the game by providing a new style of play where you trust people youve just met with your expensive ship and through that developing new contacts and networks.

Quote:
The fact you believe 250m PLEX days are over because people won't sell at those prices should be a rather strong clue that indeed, Inflation has taken place and you just admitted as much. It's not like the trade volume of PLEX as been on an ever increasing growth since Incursion release.. surely there is no connection.

Be better off trying to change the subject, or convince ppl that neutral RR is broken and off-grid boosting has caused people to get extra alts per rl person and that is causing the majority of PLEX inflation.. but where is all the cash coming from for more people to take part in this than before....


Nothing to do with inflation. PLEX was newer back then and many had thought that GTCs and PLEX sales would eventually go away. Also many had paid for a year or more of play before. The "value" of PLEX was not apparent.



Quote:
Both have certainly become a growing problem in all sigments of EVE. I don't expect much to change.. more alts per rl person = more rl money for CCP.

Nanoribbon median trade volume and price is another clue to this whole equation that hits all my points if you think about it.


Nothing wrong with OGB alts. That is why a whole line of ships exist.
Umega
Solis Mensa
#48 - 2012-02-09 09:26:42 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Quote:
I don't know where to begin.

More time that null/low pilots spend time using their highsec Incursion alts is a pretty big deal and in itself shows issues with risk/reward ratio.. and it is an actual problem. This should be a clue.. but you obviously don't know.


Actually it shows many nullsec folks are using incursions to make funds while their mains are fighting or using Incursions to avoid CTAs. Balanced. And helps reduce the influence of nullsec overlords over their members. Forcing them to offer more carrots for the effect they want.

Quote:
Incursions might not need pay reductions, but they need balancing so that sites are more adjusted to difficulty and those that contribute to a site get something instead of fleet that contributes majority gets all. For something in highsec.. when only the 'fatcat' shinest ship fleets can gather the most and completely bone over newer members.. isn't that contradicting to some of you highsec only nutjobs that wish for a pristine and all welcoming happy highsec?

It's ok.. I know the vast majority of the 'highsec only hippie hug club' is all about 'me' and doesn't care in the slighest about the overall health and growth of the entire game.. only what their hands touch matter.


I have already called for Vanguard sites to be force completed so that the higher ends sites will get more attention and that ought to help with more mixed fleets.

As for the health of the game. I do very much care. I care that now incursions provide an alternative to the fall asleep LVL4s and the fall asleep gatecamps and moon goo invasions of nullsec. I care that incursions are contributing to the health of the game by providing a new style of play where you trust people youve just met with your expensive ship and through that developing new contacts and networks.

Quote:
The fact you believe 250m PLEX days are over because people won't sell at those prices should be a rather strong clue that indeed, Inflation has taken place and you just admitted as much. It's not like the trade volume of PLEX as been on an ever increasing growth since Incursion release.. surely there is no connection.

Be better off trying to change the subject, or convince ppl that neutral RR is broken and off-grid boosting has caused people to get extra alts per rl person and that is causing the majority of PLEX inflation.. but where is all the cash coming from for more people to take part in this than before....


Nothing to do with inflation. PLEX was newer back then and many had thought that GTCs and PLEX sales would eventually go away. Also many had paid for a year or more of play before. The "value" of PLEX was not apparent.



Quote:
Both have certainly become a growing problem in all sigments of EVE. I don't expect much to change.. more alts per rl person = more rl money for CCP.

Nanoribbon median trade volume and price is another clue to this whole equation that hits all my points if you think about it.


Nothing wrong with OGB alts. That is why a whole line of ships exist.


Wow. The mythical null overlord counter point. Because it is entirely not possible that highsec Incursions are being manipulated and puppetmastered by a select few that controls the fortunes of all highsec Incursions runners..

Anyway..

Thanks for your confirmation that ppl rather do highsec Incursions over other isk making ventures in null/low/wh. This surely is not a problem.. because you want the health of this game, heavily founded in PvP combat/market and sandbox ripple effects.. to somehow revolve around some repeatative PvE that rewards the best possible fit ships and gives nothing to those that can not field such. The irony of it all.

Well aren't you the biggest hypocrit on EVE forums.

My suggestion..

Stop Talking.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Endeavour Starfleet
#49 - 2012-02-09 09:41:06 UTC
Gives nothing? Then why am I seeing Tech 1 craft with T1 weapons in fleets all the time? That is pushing the myth that only the shiny ships get the invites. Which is wrong. People that whine and cry that because they don't get invites don't listen to in channel help and want FCs to fleet them up with crap resists that will just be lost.

I have already stated vanguards need to be required to clear the field to reduce the want of FCs to do them over assaults and HQs. Those fleets are rarely all shiny.

BTW ever heard of a required CTA? It is called "Come play with us or Log the %#$& off!" Kinda hard to have a nullsec isk making venture when you are humping a new moon goo rock in your nullsec grand invasion no? WIth incursions the ability to force these has been greatly reduced. And you get to meet others at the same time.

Incursions are working as Intended. And once modular corp and POS systems are refined and added the power to force these will be even more reduced.

I am sorry you cant force CTAs on your members anymore. You should not have had that kind of power in the first place.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-02-09 09:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rellik B00n
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

Quote:
130 million ISK would buy you 90 days gametime (1.4m ISK/day)
moving onwards a few years 250 million would buy you 30 days gametime (8.3m ISK/day)
and today: 500m gets you 30 days gametime (16.6m ISK/day)


Ok let's just make this clear. The days of 250M plex are OVER. They will not come back because few will buy plex to sell at that low price. You can nuke incursions and any other direct income all you want. However, Eventually they will just stop because the RL value is far less.

Does this rather screw over newer players? Yes... However, Nobody should expect to be able to reasonably PLEX their accounts for atleast the first half year. Telling newer players that they can reasonably PLEX within the first month only harms the perception of EVE.


Where did I say I cared about the days of 250m PLEX being over? If I was going to cry it would be more about the days of 130m 90 days being over - imagine a whole years play for 620m ISK! I like the higher prices it makes RMT a whole lot more effort which is good for EvE.

The point I was making that you edited from my quote was more the 1100% rise in the cost per day of a PLEX and the fact that a significant chunk (around 400%) of that rise has been since incursions were added. I then went on to suggest that since I now own about 90 PLEXes I am quite happy for you to continue farming the crap out of incursions because when I get back to EvE ima be space-rich!


As usual in this thread (as in all HIGH SEC incursion threads) you have the two poster types:
the ones with nothing to lose who make valid well thought out arguments
the ones with a lot to lose who post any counter argument they can think of whilst tangenting/misquoting/selective quoting and generally looking to derail the whole argument.

I dont blame you guys, but eventually the wheels are gonna come off the gravy wagon!

Ask the sanctum runners, the high sec PI-ers, and the other hughe list of people that used to run lucrative professions that no longer exist!!
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#51 - 2012-02-09 10:05:57 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

Free isk? Wrong. big group risk good reward.


I laughed very hard.

Want to experience what's big group risk?

Jump that same dozen of ships *as a group* in Old Man Star, for 10 minutes.

Then come back and talk about risk, eh?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Umega
Solis Mensa
#52 - 2012-02-09 10:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Umega
It's called Risk/Reward Ratio.

If ppl don't defend their turf or go get some.. they can't 'safely' anom/rat farm in null space. You can chalk upto you, personally.. being a lazy **** that wants things handed to you so you take the easier road and are perhaps a bit jaded n salty that you control no sigment of space and never will. It is what it is though.. some how make it some sort of excuse if you want. I think it makes you look like a panzy ass ***** when you cry about having to fight, instead of sit around and make Isk in null. Seriously.. really lame response and excuse.

Don't forget sov bills, POS fuels, cost of caps/scaps, jump costs that are needed to defend/attack.

Here's a lil secret. You're Concord LP ain't going to be worth **** if less null pilots are going pop. And if people are spending more time trying to run highsec Incursions for their loot over doing so in their respective sectors of space.. there is an obvious balance problem taking place that gets worse n worse as time goes on.

EVE is not a PvE game. The moment it is.. is the moment 'EVE is dying' becomes all too real. You can trick your mind otherwise if you wish.. knock yourself out. Literally, go knock yourself out.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#53 - 2012-02-09 10:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

How about nerfing sanctum and other nullsec raw isk income? A simple "trim" to bounty payout would fix inflation right? Too bad it will screw over those who don't run them all day.


July 2011 scrub pretending to know the game detected.


Umega wrote:


I don't know where to begin.



You should not bother to begin, that poster proved time and again to be completely clueless and absurdly single / minded with heavy blinders about repeating what everyone know it's a farce, like a broken disc.


Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Gives nothing? Then why am I seeing Tech 1 craft with T1 weapons in fleets all the time?


HAHAHAH like the FCs don't check the fittings and tell those guys to GTFO and do the very low reward ones.





Incursions as they are now, they are a CANCER.

They promote the very same identical elitist sh!t attitude you'll find in the "pro" 0.0 competitive corps. They leave new players seeking for hi sec group content with a bad taste.

They turned EvE inflation from minus 0.6 or so percent to +1 percent a month.
This reversed a trend that already included post-nerf L4 missions bounties and post-nerf Anomalies.


Hey, I am fine whatever PLEX cost is, since with my activity I earn more money the more capital is in game but hey, at least spell things with a straight face.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Endeavour Starfleet
#54 - 2012-02-09 10:24:32 UTC
Umega, Except that is the issue. You arent carving yourself a nice piece to do stuff in. You are carving a path to the tech moons and space to rent.

The expenses you listed are "so wut?" to me. Most of that crap is covered by fees members and corps pay. Except for the Caps which frankly should be in the operations of those who pilot them. Not forcing people to fight over rent space and moon goo.

As for less poping. Ever stop to consider that the mass amounts of NAP does far more to reduce ship losses than incursions could dream of? Capture the Tech moons. Put up a wall of blues and wait a year before someone gets enough of their blues to take it and make the wall again. Renters in the back. AFK cloakers armed against small alliances that take any ground. Golden.

Want to empty out incursions some?

- Modular Corp and POS system.

- Complete removal of moon goo changing to drops on belt rats only.

- Implement my idea to give balance to AFK cloaking.

And incursions are set well for isk/reward. Look at payout for nullsec compared to high. Add the many factors that can not only lead to loss of Isk/hr but often your ship.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#55 - 2012-02-09 10:26:37 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Gives nothing? Then why am I seeing Tech 1 craft with T1 weapons in fleets all the time? That is pushing the myth that only the shiny ships get the invites. Which is wrong. People that whine and cry that because they don't get invites don't listen to in channel help and want FCs to fleet them up with crap resists that will just be lost.


Bullshit pro-farmer propaganda, only shiny ships get to fleet. T2 fitted BS with maxed skills and faction resists was not enough. Also, there is no ******* "help" in the channel. Vanguards are only for the jerking circle members in their shinies to hoard more ISK, which unlike moon goo, is not used to wage wars, but plexing personal accounts and buying more shiny that never gets blown up because it never leaves highsec.

Quote:
I am sorry you cant force CTAs on your members anymore. You should not have had that kind of power in the first place.


If you don't want to fight for your alliance, why belong to one?

Selfish little cunts <3



.
Endeavour Starfleet
#56 - 2012-02-09 10:26:42 UTC
Vaerah. As you have obviously never heard of a posting alt. I will not bother to reply to the rest of that and refer you to the forum TOS

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Forum_rules

Read them please.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#57 - 2012-02-09 10:30:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Vaerah. As you have obviously never heard of a posting alt. I will not bother to reply to the rest of that and refer you to the forum TOS

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Forum_rules

Read them please.


This is part of "at least say things with a straight face" I posted above.

You don't even have the guts to post with your main. That's how much "risk mindset" the incursion bears got.


Edit: actually it's worse. Because if you really have the mythical 2003 main but post like a 2011 scrub then you are ebayed or just an hypocrite.


Edit 2: those useless worms joining 0.0 corps just to rake the benefits but forfeit CTAs should never been there to begin with.

They get HIRED for an end, if they are not fine with it they may as well leave and get into another more suitable corp.
But they won't, because they are just there to leech and then play in hi sec with alt, not to be a member of something with larger objectives.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Endeavour Starfleet
#58 - 2012-02-09 10:37:54 UTC
Roime wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Gives nothing? Then why am I seeing Tech 1 craft with T1 weapons in fleets all the time? That is pushing the myth that only the shiny ships get the invites. Which is wrong. People that whine and cry that because they don't get invites don't listen to in channel help and want FCs to fleet them up with crap resists that will just be lost.


Bullshit pro-farmer propaganda, only shiny ships get to fleet. T2 fitted BS with maxed skills and faction resists was not enough. Also, there is no ******* "help" in the channel. Vanguards are only for the jerking circle members in their shinies to hoard more ISK, which unlike moon goo, is not used to wage wars, but plexing personal accounts and buying more shiny that never gets blown up because it never leaves highsec.


#1 Maxed skills? How can they tell this? No FC does API checks these days.

#2 No help? I have personally helped quite a few improve fit lines and made training suggestions to improve themselves. And that is a drop compared to the bucket of other help I see. Fit ideas, theories. And Training ideas. Wrong again Roime.

#3 Have you ever seen an HQ fleet with nothing but shiny ships? Or an assault? If you do it is rare. Vanguards are indeed shiny due to contests. However, This is mainly due to the ability to complete them without field clearing. I have already suggested a change here to force field clearing.

#4 How do you know that isk is not for war? People were doing lvl4s while deployed you know..


Roime wrote:
If you don't want to fight for your alliance, why belong to one?

Selfish little cunts <3



Fight for the alliance and its members or the moons? Or the rent space? Or the various good ole boy clubs within it?

Not all alliances are like that. Yet I doubt many of said alliances members do many incursions. Doing the exploration sites is far more fun.
Endeavour Starfleet
#59 - 2012-02-09 10:47:17 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Vaerah. As you have obviously never heard of a posting alt. I will not bother to reply to the rest of that and refer you to the forum TOS

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Forum_rules

Read them please.


This is part of "at least say things with a straight face" I posted above.

You don't even have the guts to post with your main. That's how much "risk mindset" the incursion bears got.


Edit: actually it's worse. Because if you really have the mythical 2003 main but post like a 2011 scrub then you are ebayed or just an hypocrite.


Edit 2: those useless worms joining 0.0 corps just to rake the benefits but forfeit CTAs should never been there to begin with.

They get HIRED for an end, if they are not fine with it they may as well leave and get into another more suitable corp.
But they won't, because they are just there to leech and then play in hi sec with alt, not to be a member of something with larger objectives.


You do realize many alliances REQUIRE you to use a posting alt right? Then again if members are HIRED they should follow the rules right?

As for larger objectives exactly what is that? An alliance with a halfway decent SRP wont be hemorrhaging members during CTAs (That are decent) Yet if the money is going towards good ole boy clubs (Cap and Logi only SRP) Why should the average subcap pilot have the loyalty to fight?

See what is going on? BECAUSE of the way things were the good ole boys the moon runs and the other crap formed. Now that there is an alternative the good ole boys have to disband. Subcap pilots have to be treated with respect and asked to join not forced.

There is no HIRED. EVE isnt a job for the average subcap pilot. The pilot joins because s/he either wants to make funds or s/he wants to build or s/he wants to fight.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#60 - 2012-02-09 10:52:54 UTC
You post with an alt Endeavour Starfleet, because you can't stand by anything you say with any conviction.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.