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Black ops ftw?
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Takashi X2
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-11-24 16:56:49 UTC
Im just gunna say it no matter how ******** i really am.

New Mod and Role for black ops ships to make them anticapital.......... ANTI-Resistance mods.

high slot items that lower the resistance of an enemy ship. Should theoretically consume a lot of cap like 30-40 per second per mod and there should be a stacking penelty that when you stack the maximum amount will lower the resistance of a single resistance by 50 % when fully bonused mods are used.

Each race should get a bonus anti resist based off of race type.

It should take 4 of these mods to see nearly the full affect and another 4 to max out the affect.

Let the flaming begin!
Embrace My Hate
Bitmap Brothers
#2 - 2011-11-24 17:02:31 UTC
Takashi X2 wrote:
Im just gunna say it no matter how ******** i really am.

New Mod and Role for black ops ships to make them anticapital.......... ANTI-Resistance mods.

high slot items that lower the resistance of an enemy ship. Should theoretically consume a lot of cap like 30-40 per second per mod and there should be a stacking penelty that when you stack the maximum amount will lower the resistance of a single resistance by 50 % when fully bonused mods are used.

Each race should get a bonus anti resist based off of race type.

It should take 4 of these mods to see nearly the full affect and another 4 to max out the affect.

Let the flaming begin!



Being able to use Black Ops in a sabotage role would be incredibly fun. I am not sure about your numbers but being abel to reduce an enemies resistances somehow would be interesting.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-11-25 23:19:30 UTC
This would be fun.

With this thing...

Peoples would fly blackops in fleets because reducing the primary's resistances is great.

Peoples would fly with 2/3 pilgrims and 5 bombers to take down carriers.

Peoples would (try to) fly them against dreadnoughts and supers.

Me gusta.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#4 - 2011-11-26 00:11:01 UTC
the new tier 3 battle cruisers work great at ganking capitals.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#5 - 2011-11-26 00:20:03 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
the new tier 3 battle cruisers work great at ganking capitals.


Good to know.

So, tell me. How many capitals have you actually ganked in a tier 3 BC?

Or is this more of the same old forum fantasy flying that I see so much of in here from all the 'experts'?

Mr Epeen Cool
Lola Humpsalot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-11-26 01:12:54 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
the new tier 3 battle cruisers work great at ganking capitals.


There, I fixed it for you.
Dunkler Imperator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-11-26 16:45:02 UTC
Had my blackops over a year now. NEVER used the stupid thing in combat.

Redeemer Sux

Tank > BC
DPS > BC

Cost x 7-8 of BC

Why the hell would i ever use it?
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-11-27 05:27:28 UTC
I was just ranting in another forum and really think that black ops would be used more if cloaking ships would be removed from local when cloaked. No, no, I take that back, I know they will be used a whole lot more, in both bridging and direct combat.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Sealy
The Huskarl's
#9 - 2011-11-27 13:35:25 UTC
Dunkler Imperator wrote:
Had my blackops over a year now. NEVER used the stupid thing in combat.

Redeemer Sux

Tank > BC
DPS > BC

Cost x 7-8 of BC

Why the hell would i ever use it?


I tend to agree with you in a way, I fly the redeemer and other black ops ships. I have been trying to think of how we can make the ship more practical,

The one thing that keeps coming back to me is, like a Titan a Black Ops has a specific role as a taxi, this taxi can be used in high sec so thats cool. but this still doesnt help the end problem.

I think that Black ops and covert ops as a whole needs to be relooked at a s i see it as a vital tool which is just not being used effectivly at this moment.

How can it be fixed
Black Ops Ship -
longer distance for the jump 4.5 light years is far bot not that far. 7.5 Light years would be better.
Command ship abilities would be great - this means the Black ops would need to jump in to support the fleet.
Lower ship signature with a module that you can fit on black ops only. This would increase the sensor strength of all ships in a 50km radius of the ship. The effect of this would mean only Covert Ops with 5's in all the exploration skills would be able to scan the ships down.
However for people with skills lower than 5's it would give a false positive of X amount of 1000's of KM so they could warp to the false positive and then it would be up to the Interceptors going at 6000k per second to get to the Cov Ops ship before the Signature module ended its cycle.

This is only some of the ideas of how to fix the Black Ops ship
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#10 - 2011-12-02 03:46:51 UTC
Well, simply obvious boost...give it a COVERT OPS CLOAKING DEVICE!

That lone means it can finally move with the fleet and be used like the rest of the covert ops ships, and doesn't get the electronic penalties of the non covert ops cloaks.

Move from there to see how they operate, but that alone fixes a lot of their problems.
LeHarfang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-12-02 04:47:48 UTC
There is one thing you forgot to take into account: the black ops role and one of his bonuses. The velocity bonus while cloaked, for the Sin, Gallente Black ops, increases from 117 to 183, with the BO skill at lvl 5 and using the Improved cloaking device Tech 2.

Replacing that bonus with the ability to use covert ops devices would nerf the BO velocity and maneuvrability obviously, and it would also makes covert ops exploration frigates pretty useless as the black ops could fill in that role as well.

I mean, with a speed boost like that, i really wonder how can you not follow any fleet, unless they're a frigate fleet.

Of course, the black ops do have reduced defensive HP, but with an improved cloaking device and both a covert portal generator and a covert cynosural field generator, they should be able to easily move unoticed. Of course they're not a solo all-around-ship, they have a role and are extremely specialized in it.
Marek Lonely
Partisan Squadron
#12 - 2011-12-02 12:15:08 UTC
LeHarfang wrote:
Replacing that bonus with the ability to use covert ops devices would nerf the BO velocity and maneuvrability obviously, and it would also makes covert ops exploration frigates pretty useless as the black ops could fill in that role as well.


How?

It neither gets scanning bonuses of covops frigates nor is it as maneuverable as a frigate or a force recon so it's unusable as a scout ship (good luck not getting decloacked while aligning or burning out of the bubble if you hit a camp).
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-12-02 12:38:19 UTC
The black ops, I agree this is a tricky one to truely get balanced out. Of course their main strong point is the covert cyno, and the ability to move around fast. To truely fix the black ops and make them versatile, we really need to look at the name "black ops" They are mobile undetected due to the velocity bonus. The change to decloaking I believe I read, where cloaked ships no longer cause decloak is good. What is bad is if you are in a covert fleet, black ops can decloak the entire group while moving into position, then nobody can cloak. For that reason, it needs the covert ops cloak.

The other option is if black ops ships do not cause decloak at all to get around this, but for as long as black ops will do this and I am not completely dyslexic on the decloak, this will be the first problem to overcome. Next, as was talked about, was function. Function, the widow has it. In a hit and run situation, under fire, people use bombers, plain and simple. They nearly match the damage output of a battleship, but more maneuverable and cheaper. The black ops need to become ewar battleships. Switch to the covert ops cloak, well that will help not needing lvl 5 black ops to have it useful. Change both black ops bonuses to match that of the corresponding faction's ewar ability. Or maybe just have the one.

Whether this would be over powered or not, I do not know. They would be powerful, but it would match for their cost and their role of neutralizing targets fast. Their defences are still less so in a matched numbers combat, if the black ops don't make the difference fast, they will die. In large fleet battles, they will of course be primaried, and die. But in smaller fights, or in proper use, they could be snuck in, and used to neutralize enemy logistics chains, and other high priority targets. I mean, isn't that the point of it? Sneak them in to take out stuff where a normal fleet won't work?

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Marek Lonely
Partisan Squadron
#14 - 2011-12-02 12:52:45 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
The black ops, I agree this is a tricky one to truely get balanced out. Of course their main strong point is the covert cyno, and the ability to move around fast. To truely fix the black ops and make them versatile, we really need to look at the name "black ops" They are mobile undetected due to the velocity bonus. The change to decloaking I believe I read, where cloaked ships no longer cause decloak is good. What is bad is if you are in a covert fleet, black ops can decloak the entire group while moving into position, then nobody can cloak. For that reason, it needs the covert ops cloak.

The other option is if black ops ships do not cause decloak at all to get around this, but for as long as black ops will do this and I am not completely dyslexic on the decloak, this will be the first problem to overcome. Next, as was talked about, was function. Function, the widow has it. In a hit and run situation, under fire, people use bombers, plain and simple. They nearly match the damage output of a battleship, but more maneuverable and cheaper. The black ops need to become ewar battleships. Switch to the covert ops cloak, well that will help not needing lvl 5 black ops to have it useful. Change both black ops bonuses to match that of the corresponding faction's ewar ability. Or maybe just have the one.

Whether this would be over powered or not, I do not know. They would be powerful, but it would match for their cost and their role of neutralizing targets fast. Their defences are still less so in a matched numbers combat, if the black ops don't make the difference fast, they will die. In large fleet battles, they will of course be primaried, and die. But in smaller fights, or in proper use, they could be snuck in, and used to neutralize enemy logistics chains, and other high priority targets. I mean, isn't that the point of it? Sneak them in to take out stuff where a normal fleet won't work?


+1 on EWAR idea, it is sad that the Scorpion/Widow are the only non-pirate EWAR BSs given that every other major combat oriented shipclass has them (I count destroyers and BCs not being a major class but rather stepping stones between frigs/cruisers and cruisers/BSs)

This combined with covops cloaking would help them become a valuable asset in sneaky hit&run disruption gangs, like already used bomber gangs used to hit&run TCUs/Upgrade Hubs/SBUs with light defenses.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#15 - 2011-12-02 14:08:13 UTC
Death to supers!
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#16 - 2012-01-12 10:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
LeHarfang wrote:
There is one thing you forgot to take into account: the black ops role and one of his bonuses. The velocity bonus while cloaked, for the Sin, Gallente Black ops, increases from 117 to 183, with the BO skill at lvl 5 and using the Improved cloaking device Tech 2.

Replacing that bonus with the ability to use covert ops devices would nerf the BO velocity and maneuverability obviously, and it would also makes covert ops exploration frigates pretty useless as the black ops could fill in that role as well.

I mean, with a speed boost like that, i really wonder how can you not follow any fleet, unless they're a frigate fleet.

Of course, the black ops do have reduced defensive HP, but with an improved cloaking device and both a covert portal generator and a covert cynosural field generator, they should be able to easily move unnoticed. Of course they're not a solo all-around-ship, they have a role and are extremely specialized in it.


How so? I'm sorry but a jump of 50m/s does not a mobile ship make. Cloaked you can't run a MWD or an AB, so you're just putting around at 180m/s. How is this mobile? How do you expect to navigate around anything at this tiny of a speed. Sure you're more mobile than non AB/MWD'ing battleships, but how is that ever effective?

The ship velocity bonus is a joke and completely useless. If you're trying to follow a fleet, the best way to do it is remain close by, and simply decloak/MWD to the gate after they leave.

I've been told they would be overpowered with a covops cloak, but I've yet to hear any real reasoning on why. For the ridiculous skill requirements on them they should be pretty powerful, but instead they are laughed at for having weak tanks, huge targeting delays, being slow and basically useless outside of the jump bridge ability.

So, here's my proposal.

They each get 4 bonuses. 1 defensive, 1 offensive, and 2 ewar, and a role bonus.
Quote:

Widow
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cruise and siege missile launcher rate of fire and 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level

Black Ops Skill Bonus: 30% bonus to ECM target jammer strength and multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level


Change to

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cruise and siege missile launcher rate of fire and 5% bonus to Shield Resistances per level. (this mirrors the Scorpion Navy Issue and provides a decent counter to filling the mids with nothing but tank/ewar).

Black Ops Skill Bonus: 30% bonus to ECM target jammer strength and 10% Bonus to ECM Target Jammer capacitor use per level

Quote:

Redeemer
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in large energy turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to large energy turret rate of fire per level

Black Ops Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking and multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level


Change to:

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% armor resistance per level, and 5% bonus to large energy turret rate of fire per level

Black Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness and 40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer range
(i'm torn between making this another Bhaalgorn, and using the tracking disruptor bonuses.

Quote:

Sin
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per skill level

Black Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to agility and multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level


Change To:

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount of armor repair systems per level, and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per skill level

Black Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level and 5% bonus to remote sensor dampener optimal range per level.


Quote:
Panther
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to large projectile turret damage per level

Black Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to velocity and multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level


Change to

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire and 7.5% bonus to Shield Boost Amount per level

Black Ops Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per level and 5% bonus to target painter effective range per level.

In addition, they should all get a straight role bonus to be able to fit the covert ops cloak.

My reasoning is that it gives all the battleships a use aside from being a jump portal. Most if not all the ewar bonuses are useful to bomber gangs (painting/damps/ecm/neuts) while also being viable in their own uses as a straight battleship with the initial bonuses. I wanted to stay away from straight DPS bonuses across the board.

Thoughts criticism, suggestions, changes?
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#17 - 2012-01-12 10:59:49 UTC
Or possibly so that when it says 125% velocity per level, you end up going 5x125% (~600%) at BO level 5. So, basically a MWD'ing base speed while cloaked, instead of the bullshit 65% increase you get while cloaked at BO V now.

Thus, your speeds would be:

Uncloaked
Panther - 146
Widow - 106
Redeemer - 117
Sin - 117

Old Cloaked
Panther - 228
Widow - 133
Redeemer - 146
Sin - 146

New Cloaked
Panther - 876
Widow - 636
Redeemer - 702
Sin - 702

Now THAT is mobile.
SpawnSupreme
Hardly Mischief
#18 - 2012-01-12 11:36:08 UTC
maybe its late and im tired but huh? what? engrish prease!
we want plack ops to nulify resistances? or to transfer res bonus? or what is being said here be kinda cool if you can use black ops ships to be unique in sence that thier suposed to be so good at hide maybe they hide from local challel as well haha
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#19 - 2012-02-08 18:05:42 UTC
This is my last bump I promise.
T'Khlau
Somnium Vita
#20 - 2012-02-08 22:50:36 UTC
Think I prefer the idea of them mounting specialised modules to reduce a targets resists, that could be interesting.