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Field command ships using Tier 2 BC Hulls, and Balancing the Astarte

Author
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#21 - 2011-12-08 19:41:41 UTC

The problem with field commands and to a lesser extent with fleet command is that with the introduction of t3 cruisers there is really no point to this entire lineup. EHP, tank, and dps values of t3s compared to field commands almost always are significantly in favor of the t3 cruisers, something I think should be addressed. This is not even looking at the innate advantages a cruiser sized sig/align has over a BC.

The other issue I see is with the slot layouts of field commands in comparison to tier 2 BCs. For example Astarte has the same number of slots as the Myrmidon, Nighthawk has 1 less than drake (wtf?), Absolution has 1 less than harbie (again wtf?), and the sleip has the same number as the cane. Compare this to other t2 combat ship classes and you will see this is rather unique.

I'd suggest that 1 slot be given to each of the field command ships other than the Sleipnir as this ship has proven to working well time and time again, the Sleip also has 1 more slot than any of the other field commands.

So here are my specific suggestion:

Nighthawk: +1 med slot, +100 grid. I'd also suggest that the kinetic dmg bonus be changed to a strait heavy/heavy assault dmg bonus.

Absolution: Either +1 mid, or +1 high and +1 turret with grid to fit.

Sleipnir: Unchanged

Astarte: +1 low
CobaltSixty
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#22 - 2011-12-08 20:02:08 UTC  |  Edited by: CobaltSixty
All the Fleet Command ships need a total of 8 highs, and any fitting balance necessary to make that work. The Claymore already has this and can fit a full 5 guns and 3 links without issue. All the other Fleet Command ships have 5 weapon slots to the type they are bonused to but only 2 spare highs for links. Non-Minmatar CS pilots are forced to remove a weapon in order to fit the 3 links they bought that ship for. I don't see any problem with the Eos, Vulture and Damnation hitting as hard as a combat recon while fleet bonusing - the Claymore already does.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#23 - 2011-12-08 20:24:23 UTC
CobaltSixty wrote:
The main problem with this is that unfortunately, the Gallente lineup breaks the logic. Allow me to illustrate.


  • Absolution based off a Harbinger? You bet, I'm sure many an Amarr pilot would love to see red plating on their Harby.
  • Nighthawk based of a Drake? Great idea, I always thought the Drake in black/red would be sweet and appropriate.
  • Sleipnir based off a Hurricane? Batting a thousand so far, tiger striped 'canes, here we come.
  • Astarte based off a Myrmidon? What? No. The Eos is the CreoDron ship and more drone-inclined.

The motivation behind this thread is clearly more about the visual inconsistencies than the ship design beneath the skin. It's pointless to try and combine the issues. Can we make the Eos based off the Myrmidon and leave the Astarte as is as you suggest? Well no, the Eos is the Fleet Command, all the others are Fields. In changing the ships as you suggest, the Astarte should be the weakest Field Command as it's the only one based off a tier-1 and the Eos the strongest Fleet Command because it's the only one based off a tier-2.

The only way to rectify this without fixing broken logic with new broken logic is for CCP to decide that it would not be detrimental for the different races to draw on different tiers to make equivalent classes of vessels. Frankly, I don't see a problem with this and it's another good reason to remove tiers from how the ships are designed but, until that call is made, this proposal exceeds the game design limits present at EVERY other level.


I think you failed to read my second post as this is exactly what I suggest, Leave the astarte on the brutix, and move the Eos to the fleet command ship as it makes a lot more sense than its lineup now.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#24 - 2011-12-11 21:57:13 UTC
More Feedback?
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#25 - 2011-12-19 22:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
As an update, I figured I would add in the new developers/colors of the field command ships, if they were changed.

You would have the:

Absolution - Carthum Conglomerate - Red/Gold - Harbinger
Damnation - Khanid Innovations - Black/Blue - Prophecy

NightHawk - Kaalakiota - Black/red - Drake
Vulture - Ishukone - Gold/Grey gradient pattern - Ferox

Astarte - Duvolle Labs - Green/Gold/Grey (whatever color that is) - Brutix
Eos - CreoDron - Bright Green/Grey - Myrmidon

Sleipnir - Boundless Creation - White/Black/Brown - Hurricane
Claymore - Core Complexion - White/Brown?- Cyclone

On a side note, the Minmatar need some new paint schemes, I find it very hard to tell the two main developers ships apart. Then, I don't fly minmatar as well so.
Lucjan
Deutzer Freiheit
#26 - 2011-12-19 22:20:37 UTC
Cookies and Milk for you!

I can only speak for Gallente but, the Myrmidon would fit perfectly with the Eos Drone Command Ship bonuses. I'd use it just because it's the Myrmidon hull even though the drone space bonuses has no use for me personally.

I am very surprised it has not been done yet.

As for colours : a black (darker Rattlesnake) Myrmidon please.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#27 - 2011-12-20 05:42:03 UTC
Lucjan wrote:
Cookies and Milk for you!

I can only speak for Gallente but, the Myrmidon would fit perfectly with the Eos Drone Command Ship bonuses. I'd use it just because it's the Myrmidon hull even though the drone space bonuses has no use for me personally.

I am very surprised it has not been done yet.

As for colours : a black (darker Rattlesnake) Myrmidon please.


It's a creodrone fit, so expect it to match the rest of the Creodrone colors like the current eos dos.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#28 - 2011-12-30 08:15:43 UTC
Just playing around with a current Astarte, it really needs some work, you can't fit a full set of guns, a MWD and a decent tank on it like you can the absolution. :\
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#29 - 2011-12-30 08:32:57 UTC
With the Eos, you'd get the myrmidons bonus to drone HP/Damage, but with the increased bay of the Eos.

So you're looking at a 225m3 bay, with a full flight of HammerHead II's doing 50% more damage with 50% more health (at perfect skills mind you). So pretty effective for a drone boat. The bandwidth isn't increased so you still can't fit an entire flight of heavy's or sentry's though.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#30 - 2012-01-12 10:11:03 UTC
bump.
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-01-12 11:10:55 UTC
TBH id rather they kept them as they are and used teh tier 2 and eventually tier 3 battlecruitsers for different T2 variants.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#32 - 2012-01-12 16:12:03 UTC
Removing the epic black/red Ferox? The Drake is just another stupid "engines at the back"-design, while the Ferox-hull is simply amazing.

0/10

Other proposals supported.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#33 - 2012-01-13 08:41:27 UTC
Klingon Admiral wrote:
Removing the epic black/red Ferox? The Drake is just another stupid "engines at the back"-design, while the Ferox-hull is simply amazing.

0/10

Other proposals supported.


So, you're against the idea simply because you don't like the drake.... Roll
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#34 - 2012-02-08 18:03:52 UTC
Bumpity bump.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-02-08 20:39:56 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Just playing around with a current Astarte, it really needs some work, you can't fit a full set of guns, a MWD and a decent tank on it like you can the absolution. :\



wow, yes you can

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#36 - 2012-02-08 20:41:19 UTC
Andski wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
Just playing around with a current Astarte, it really needs some work, you can't fit a full set of guns, a MWD and a decent tank on it like you can the absolution. :\



wow, yes you can



plz provide fit for me?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-02-08 20:52:39 UTC
post your fit and we'll start from there

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Velicitia
XS Tech
#38 - 2012-02-08 21:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Threw this together to see if it could be done ... all level 5 skills put your top speed at just over 1k m/sec, with 77k EHP. Obviously you won't be flying this alone...

[Astarte, Astarte]
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Reactive Membrane II
Energized Regenerative Membrane II

10MN Digital Booster Rockets
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
Warp Scrambler II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 150

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#39 - 2012-02-08 21:52:30 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Threw this together to see if it could be done ... all level 5 skills put your top speed at just over 1k m/sec, with 77k EHP. Obviously you won't be flying this alone...

[Astarte, Astarte]
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Reactive Membrane II
Energized Regenerative Membrane II

10MN Digital Booster Rockets
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
Warp Scrambler II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 150

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Ah, well I built mine before the crucible hybrid buff. But even still this fit needs a faction MWD, and doesn't fit the 1600 plate, the absolution does both for only loosing one gun. I'm not opposed to that trade off, say a Harby based absolution having strict fitting requirements, I just think it should be the same across the board for all of the field command ships.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#40 - 2012-02-08 21:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
the 10mn digital booster rockets are T1 named, not faction.
you didn't specify 1600mm plate.

EDIT --> OK, swapped out the 800mm with a 1600mm plate. you lose 11m/sec over the other one ... but gain about 8k HP.

[Astarte, Astarte]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Reactive Membrane II
Energized Regenerative Membrane II

10MN Digital Booster Rockets
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
Warp Scrambler II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 150

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

edit 2 --> ugh, you're right with the MWD. ******* new names.

OK, swapping that out puts you 2% over. No big deal to throw in a 3%PG implant (or take off an EANM for a RCU II, I suppose)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

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