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Golem vs. Vargur with logistic domi for gallente/minmatar lvl 4 ???
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Ejit
STD contractors
#21 - 2011-09-18 18:35:05 UTC
AureoLion wrote:
I had a really long post, but eve forums ate it.
Golem is harder, but better.
Vargur is easier, and at low skills, both player and character ones, is better.
800 base dps vs. 1200 base dps is EASILY seen. I wouldn't do Buzz Kill in a golem, but for Blockade and the likes, no vargur is gonna outdo a golem.


I just spent nearly 10 mins typing out a post. Clicked Post and it disappeared. Very annoying forum bug.

But to summarise, Golem sucks and Vargur wins in every way!
AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-09-18 22:23:04 UTC
Saint god, AGAIN.
Ohwell.
Have EFT screenshots of some math. I'm not interested in any anectodal evidence, unless backed by proper data.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/783175/FDDShots/1316380347.png
BS: 175 m/s, orbiting, 400m sig.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/783175/FDDShots/1316380606.png
HAC, 200m/s, orbiting, 400m sig.
Implants not included, since they're pretty mirroring (5%damage/rof for both, 10% range vs. 5% falloff after that)
Shooting RF ammo at a 3.0 ROF isn't smart. So, not included.
Hail rocks.. for sub 10km ranges and little else. So, not included.
Shooting CN ammo for only HACs, on the other hand, is pretty feasible.
Comparison on frigates seems ********, since both ships will likely pack 5x light+5x medium, and not 3x sentry. And vargur doesn't fare well at shooting at close orbiting frigates, anyway.
Paladin beats both in sansha space, likely. Vargur for the dps, Golem for the range, and both for the tank required.
Other ships won't come close, since the added income of salvage beats out any additional speed a Mach may pack.
stoicfaux
#23 - 2011-09-19 00:36:25 UTC
AureoLion wrote:
Saint god, AGAIN.
Ohwell.
Have EFT screenshots of some math. I'm not interested in any anectodal evidence, unless backed by proper data.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/783175/FDDShots/1316380347.png
BS: 175 m/s, orbiting, 400m sig.


Only the Gist Nephilim and the Gist Saint have 400m sigs. The rest have 320 or 350 meter sigs. This makes Rage torps a bad idea since most Angel battleships are not Nephilims and Saints. (And no, it's not worth the 20 seconds to load and unload Rage torps just to shoot Nephilims and Saints.)

VTK (Volleys To Kill) all skills at V, 5% implants:

Gist Nephilim (400m sig, 175m/s orbit speed):
Golem Siege II w/Rage: 3 TPs: 2.56 volleys. VTK = 3
Golem Siege II w/CN ammo: 1 TP: 2.85 volleys. VTK = 3
Golem Siege II w/T1 ammo: 1 TP: 3.28 volleys. VTK = 4
Golem Siege II w/Rage: 2 TPs: 3.14 volleys. VTK = 4
Golem Seige II w/Rage: 1 TP: 3.94 volleys. VTK = 4

Skills 4, No implants, w/CN ammo: 3 TPs: 3.04 volleys. VTK = 4 (Sig Focusing and Marauder skills at IV, no implants)

Gist Commander (320 sig, 175m/s orbit speed):
Golem Siege II w/CN ammo: 2 TPs: 1.99 volleys. VTK = 2
Golem Siege II w/Rage ammo: 3 TPs: 1.99 volleys. VTK = 2
Golem Siege II w/T1 ammo: 2 TPs: 2.29 volleys. VTK = 3
Golem Siege II w/T1 ammo: 1 TP: 2.63 volleys. VTK = 3
Golem Siege II w/Rage ammo: 2 TPs: 2.70 volleys. VTK = 3
Golem Siege II w/Rage ammo: 1 TP: 3.41 volleys. VTK = 4

Skills 4, No implants, w/CN ammo: 3 TPs: 2.09 volleys. VTK = 3 (Sig Focusing and Marauder skills at IV, no implants)

Arch Gistum Marauder (130 sig, 200m/s orbit):
Golem Siege II w/CN ammo: 3 TPs: 2.55 volleys. VTK = 3
Golem Siege II w/T1 ammo: 3 TPs: 2.93 volleys. VTK = 3
Golem Siege II w/CN ammo: 2 TPs: 3.43 volleys. VTK = 4
Golem Siege II w/T1 ammo: 2 TPs: 3.94 volleys. VTK = 4
Golem Siege II w/Rage ammo: 3 TPs: 3.84 volleys. VTK = 4
Golem Siege II w/CN ammo: 1 TPs: 4.32 volleys. VTK = 5
Golem Siege II w/T1 ammo: 1 TPs: 4.96 volleys. VTK = 5

Skills 4, No implants, w/CN ammo: 3 TPs: 3.07 volleys. VTK = 4 (Sig Focusing and Marauder skills at IV, no implants)


There's no point to using Rage Torps over CN Torps. Plus Rage torps require 3 TPs to be effective.
Implants for a Golem make a noticeable difference due to the Golem's large volley damage. Meaning, the DPS loss caused by overkill and underkill (e.g. 3.07 volleys rounds up to 4 volleys) is problematic.


Quote:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/783175/FDDShots/1316380606.png
HAC, 200m/s, orbiting, 400m sig.


You really meant 110m sig for the HAC, right?

Quote:
Implants not included, since they're pretty mirroring (5%damage/rof for both, 10% range vs. 5% falloff after that)


The Golem has huge volley damage and can only fire once every seven seconds. That 5% damage implant can make the difference between a kill and having to fire another volley.

Quote:
Shooting RF ammo at a 3.0 ROF isn't smart. So, not included.


It's plenty smart. 15% damage bonus smart. If you're not using faction ammo on a Marauder, you're doing it wrong.


Here's why the numbers you posted are meaningless:
a) You've never flown a Vargur in missions.
b) TPs. If you mismanage them, you lose significant DPS.
c) Range. Switching to Javelin torps takes time. Even then, you're still limited to 60km.
d) Missed volleys. If you mis-count a torpedo volley, you waste time.
e) You didn't use faction ammo for both marauders in all circumstances
f) Range again. The Vargur can engage at much longer ranges than the Golem can. Which means the Golem is bad at long range missions right from the start.
g) Drones are slow to kill frigates. With the Vargur, it's not often that I find myself needing to deploy drones to kill frigates. IME, the Golem winds up waiting for the drones to finish off the last frigate or two.
h) EFT DPS is a guideline. It has limitations and assumptions. You really need to compare mission times.



Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Capn Orgasmo
Dmacks Minnions
#24 - 2011-09-19 11:29:20 UTC
Wu Spacey wrote:
Im going to get ripped maybe for this, but a Golem using cruise with a Large Gist sheild booster and 2 invun, and one photon is so effective for level 4's. You dont havbe to even stop to change hardeners, just change missiles, this is with max skills in all relevent skills

BS go down in 3-6 volleys, any non elite figs go down in one, cruisers and battlecruisers go down in 2, you rarely even have to deploy drones. Any elites use drones. Missions are so simple, there is nothing you can do wrong.

I have max skills in torps too, but seriously, why bother? Unless you want to salvage, let them die at 70-80km. This is not a popular pov, but I stand by it for max money.


Two words.

Defender Missiles.
Heun zero
MAYHEM BOYZ
#25 - 2011-09-20 10:06:51 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:


As for a cruise missile Golem, you might as well just fly a CNR. NPC defenders really put the hurt on a cruise golem (25% reduction in volley damage versus a 14% reduction for a CNR) plus the CNR has greater firepower and can carry one more rigor rig.



I do believe this is incorrect as missiles do a% of dmg according to the % of HP they have left. so if a missile has 100% hp it does 100% dmg if it has 50% left it does only 50% of the dmg.

So it's not about whether or not a single missile gets destroyed it's about the % of dmg defender missiles do to the total HP of your missiles
AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-09-20 10:57:20 UTC
Post eaten, AGAIN. Sigh.
That thread hates me.
Anyway: I know perfectely well that a vargur's dps transitions far better in real world dps, but keep in mind that the better transition will hardly overshadow golem's better overall dps, on battleships. A golem firing at 10s rate, instead of his normal 7.x, would've the same dps as a vargur. And that covers more or less any mishappen.
When HAC packs come in the equation, golem suffers. A lot.
RF ammo is ~4mil per hour spent, while Rage ammo is less than 1mil. that's more or less 5% of your profit. May be worth it to use, but still will make a dent in your income, and you have to account for that.
Oh, and fear the mighty quad-tp golem.
@Heun: No. Torps take 8 defenders to go down, and do full damage until one is damaged. Cruise take 1 defender to go down.
If grouped, the damage of the group lowers by the appropriate part. (1/7 if there's 7 launchers grouped, etc)
Uzbeg Khan
Henehen Conflict Logistics
#27 - 2011-09-20 11:40:44 UTC
Imo it matters alot more how much time it takes to kill stuff smaller than BS'es, as there arent that many BS in a L4 either way.

Things I hate: - Signatures - Irony - Lists
Fritz Ionar
Electronic Scientific Recreational
#28 - 2011-09-20 12:16:05 UTC
Golem wins becouse missiles is the most fun weapon system Lol IMHO people should be less obsesed with hunting DPS and what not and more interested in flying what they think is fun.

As for forum eating posts, if I write long posts, I do it in a text file and copy paste to the forum when I'm done. Save me a lot of anger and frustration Smile
stoicfaux
#29 - 2011-09-20 13:47:48 UTC
In Chrome at least, if you "lose" your post after hitting the post button, hit the browser back button and you'll get your post's contents back. Then click submit again and the post will save.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Gavin DeVries
JDI Industries
#30 - 2011-09-20 13:54:18 UTC
Wu Spacey wrote:
each torp costs about what 1600 isk?


I think I pay about 4000 each for navy torps. I still make far more money running missions in the torp Golem than I did in a heavy missile Tengu.

PVP is a question with no single right answer, but a lot of wrong ones.
stoicfaux
#31 - 2011-09-20 15:36:23 UTC
AureoLion wrote:
Post eaten, AGAIN. Sigh.
That thread hates me.
Anyway: I know perfectely well that a vargur's dps transitions far better in real world dps, but keep in mind that the better transition will hardly overshadow golem's better overall dps, on battleships. A golem firing at 10s rate, instead of his normal 7.x, would've the same dps as a vargur. And that covers more or less any mishappen.


Not really. Checking the logs, Damsel had 13 Mercenary Overlords (aka Sentinels.) My Vargur killed them in 65 shots. 65/13 = 5 volleys per kill. At three seconds per volley that's 15 seconds per battleship. (If I had all skills at V and 5% implants, it would have been 5 * 2.8s = 14.0 seconds per kill on average.)

With skills at V and 5% implants, a Golem can kill a Mercenary Overlord in two volleys, or 14.0 seconds.

I'm continually finding that my Vargur's effective DPS and/or mission completion time is simply better than a Golem's. Again the Golem has TP cycles, large volleys causing overkill, volley counting, ammo swapping, limited range, and the missile launcher/TP cycles are more susceptible to lag, all of which detract from its DPS. Whereas the Vargur's guns can hold 120 volleys, loses less DPS to overkill due to smaller, faster volleys, has longer range, etc..

Quote:
RF ammo is ~4mil per hour spent, while Rage ammo is less than 1mil. that's more or less 5% of your profit. May be worth it to use, but still will make a dent in your income, and you have to account for that.


According to my old spreadsheets, Golem ammo costs (CN and Javelin) were running around 1.5% at a 2,000 isk/lp conversion rate plus bounties plus current salvage prices, and current mineral value of loot.

In your case, there's also the time you lose loading and unloading Rage ammo. CN ammo kills as effectively as Rage ammo, works well on cruisers and BCs, and requires less TPs than Rage. Using less TPs means you suffer less delays while waiting for TP cycles (e.g. Rage requires 3 TPs to be competitive, whereas with CN ammo you can slap 2 TPs on BS 1 and the other two TPs on BS 2 and avoid the wait.)

Plus there's Javelin ammo to worry about, which does 30% less damage than CN ammo, requires reloading and is limited to 60km range.

Quote:
@Heun: No. Torps take 8 defenders to go down, and do full damage until one is damaged. Cruise take 1 defender to go down.
If grouped, the damage of the group lowers by the appropriate part. (1/7 if there's 7 launchers grouped, etc)


Four defenders to kill a Torp. Weapon grouping dev blog (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=596) see table at the end. Partial damage to a torpedo hitting a torp does not reduce damage. Meaning, a single defender hitting a torpedo does not reduce the torpedo to 75% damage. However, there are some NPCs that get a missile damage multiplier which can allow an NPC defender to kill a torpedo. (It's murder on grouped cruise missiles.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Miney Prospector
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-09-21 01:17:33 UTC
I'm not a missioning pro by any means and I really haven't run missions on my alts steadily for years. I just started grinding missions again to work up standings to make my alts farm datacores while they're just sitting around being lazy. So, that being said I started running missions with two pilots at the same time and I have to say that having done it this way I would not be able to go back to just running them with one. My main flies a Paladin and I trained my remote repper alt to fly Gallente and I have him flying a Domi with a sensor linking module. I drop into the mission with the Paladin first and aquire agro. I drop the Domi in and launch Garde II's and set them to guard the Paladin pilot. Everything dies extremely fast and I typically don't even get my armor too scuffed up.
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