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How have incursions affected the usefulness of doing other things for isk in highsec?
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Syme
Umbra Scientia Muneris
#21 - 2012-02-08 18:49:44 UTC
As a very casual non-voice using player I can only stare at incursion runners with extreme jealousy.

However it has had an effect on CCP as I have un-subbed my alt (cash paying) account as isk inflation has made him not worth keeping.
nate555
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-02-08 19:10:08 UTC
Syme wrote:
As a very casual non-voice using player I can only stare at incursion runners with extreme jealousy.

However it has had an effect on CCP as I have un-subbed my alt (cash paying) account as isk inflation has made him not worth keeping.

I'm kind of loving the inflation. Can sell plex for lots of isk. Me like, But it does need to be fixed
Endeavour Starfleet
#23 - 2012-02-08 19:31:39 UTC
Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.

Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy.

It is almost comical how people just try to make incursions a scapegoat and not realize that PLEX had been far too low for far too long. It has gone from subbing one account with PLEX to push back a big yearly payment to plexing your main and alts. This is leading to more alts. More activity and thus higher prices for PLEX.

Then you've got bittervets returning with Crucible. People who had a large amount of isk and used it to PLEX up 6 months or a year. Higher demand. And will still grow as more return over the summer.

Nuking incursions wont help anything. If any small drop in PLEX prices happens as people move back into LVL4s. It will be quickly used to fund reactivation of nullsec alts to farm bounties in their NAPed up territory. And the price will come back except now at the benefit of nullsec overlords again.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#24 - 2012-02-08 19:39:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.

Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy.
Less than three times higher, actually. The problem is that it's three times less even the there are much much fewer people generating it. The average incursion runner makes something along the lines of 170M ISK a day. The average mission runner makes 5M… that is why people make incursions a scapegoat: because of the scale of the influx they cause in relation to how few are doing them. The only saving grace of incursions is that there is something of an upper bound to how many can do them at once — if there weren't they'd be disastrous.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-02-08 20:11:00 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.

Right, there is none and i presume since CCP won't bother releasing their statistical data, so we just have to speculate on the matter. The thing is, it's simple logic really, if you introduce something to a system, say, a machine that poops out $10mil cash everyday and gives it away to people, what do you think will happen to the prices on the market?

Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy..

On a larger scheme, probably yes, but then again, only CCP can answer that. But seeing how much people get from incursions in comparison to what they get from single client ratting, i doubt this is possible.

Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
It is almost comical how people just try to make incursions a scapegoat and not realize that PLEX had been far too low for far too long. It has gone from subbing one account with PLEX to push back a big yearly payment to plexing your main and alts. This is leading to more alts. More activity and thus higher prices for PLEX.

Most people don't like inflation, especially those who depends on liquid isk and not assets. So it's logical if they blame something which in particular the most probable cause to the issue at hand. Doesn't necessarily have to be the right 'scapegoat'.

Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Nuking incursions wont help anything. If any small drop in PLEX prices happens as people move back into LVL4s. It will be quickly used to fund reactivation of nullsec alts to farm bounties in their NAPed up territory. And the price will come back except now at the benefit of nullsec overlords again.

One thing i'm sure of is that CCP won't 'nuke' incursions, unless there are a massive, massive rejection from the Eve Community, that won't happen, even if there are, say huge demo to remove incursions, CCP would probably only change the mechanics somehow (as they're doing right now).

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2012-02-08 20:15:21 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Right, there is none and i presume since CCP won't bother releasing their statistical data, so we just have to speculate on the matter.
They have released the data: it's 1% per month.
Quote:
On a larger scheme, probably yes, but then again, only CCP can answer that.
…and again, they have: bounties inject 896 billion ISK / day; incursions inject 302 billion.
Quote:
One thing i'm sure of is that CCP won't 'nuke' incursions
It sounds like they're thinking about scaling back the rewards to better match the difficulty and risks… whether that counts as “nuking” or not has yet to be seen.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-02-08 20:15:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Schneider
Tippia wrote:
They have released the data: it's 1% per month.
It sounds like they're thinking about scaling back the rewards to better match the difficulty and risks… whether that counts as “nuking” or not has yet to be seen.

Ah, thanks :)
But that's not what i meant, in a sense. It's the psychological impact of what incursions (suspected) to have done to the market. Maybe Incursions in a whole statistically don't have major impact on the market, but psychologically, it does. Let's just say, for instance, i can buy a plex if i did a couple of hours of incursions which practically has minimal risk (i'm talking about one day, not continous shiney-ship incursions), i can also do the same via ratting, but at much much longer time to spend, say 2-3 days. A lot of people know this and that should drive the plex prices to some extent.

Tippia wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.

Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy.
Less than three times higher, actually. The problem is that it's three times less even the there are much much fewer people generating it. The average incursion runner makes something along the lines of 170M ISK a day. The average mission runner makes 5M… that is why people make incursions a scapegoat: because of the scale of the influx they cause in relation to how few are doing them. The only saving grace of incursions is that there is something of an upper bound to how many can do them at once — if there weren't they'd be disastrous.

Thanks for pointing this out, a lot of people seems to have missed this particular aspect for some reason.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#28 - 2012-02-08 20:31:03 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Tippia wrote:
They have released the data: it's 1% per month.
It sounds like they're thinking about scaling back the rewards to better match the difficulty and risks… whether that counts as “nuking” or not has yet to be seen.

Ah, thanks :)
But that's not what i meant, in a sense. It's the psychological impact of what incursions (suspected) to have done to the market.

Tippia wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.

Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy.
Less than three times higher, actually. The problem is that it's three times less even the there are much much fewer people generating it. The average incursion runner makes something along the lines of 170M ISK a day. The average mission runner makes 5M… that is why people make incursions a scapegoat: because of the scale of the influx they cause in relation to how few are doing them. The only saving grace of incursions is that there is something of an upper bound to how many can do them at once — if there weren't they'd be disastrous.

Thanks for pointing this out, a lot of people seems to have missed this particular aspect for some reason.


Maybe because it is ignoring what the average incursion runner would made instead per day? Its not like that those incursion bears would be not else mission bears or anomaly bears. 5 Million per day sounds like level 2 missions, you know? ;-)

Remove insurance.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-02-08 20:36:24 UTC
Tenris Anis wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Tippia wrote:
They have released the data: it's 1% per month.
It sounds like they're thinking about scaling back the rewards to better match the difficulty and risks… whether that counts as “nuking” or not has yet to be seen.

Ah, thanks :)
But that's not what i meant, in a sense. It's the psychological impact of what incursions (suspected) to have done to the market.

Tippia wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.

Bounties are MUCH MUCH higher influx of isk into the economy.
Less than three times higher, actually. The problem is that it's three times less even the there are much much fewer people generating it. The average incursion runner makes something along the lines of 170M ISK a day. The average mission runner makes 5M… that is why people make incursions a scapegoat: because of the scale of the influx they cause in relation to how few are doing them. The only saving grace of incursions is that there is something of an upper bound to how many can do them at once — if there weren't they'd be disastrous.

Thanks for pointing this out, a lot of people seems to have missed this particular aspect for some reason.


Maybe because it is ignoring what the average incursion runner would made instead per day? Its not like that those incursion bears would be not else mission bears or anomaly bears. 5 Million per day sounds like level 2 missions, you know? ;-)

Yes, that's probably one of the reason why.

Just for the record, i used to make 400-500mil in average running hisec incursions, so in my opinion 170m sounds more like the bottom margin for incursion runners income and 5 million per day does sound like L2 missions.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2012-02-08 20:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tenris Anis wrote:
Maybe because it is ignoring what the average incursion runner would made instead per day? Its not like that those incursion bears would be not else mission bears or anomaly bears. 5 Million per day sounds like level 2 missions, you know? ;-)
Strictly speaking, that 5M number is what the average mission runner (across all levels and all types of missions) would make at most, if we ignore the other sources of bounty income. In reality, it's definitely less than that.

And yes, it would be nice if we had a more compartmentalised number for only L4 combat missions and the number of people running them, but you go with what you have. As a result, the average incursion runner makes at least 30× more than the average mission runner.

On a somewhat related note, it's interesting to note that w-space is actually indirectly the third largest source of newly-minted ISK.
Adunh Slavy
#31 - 2012-02-08 20:40:07 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.



Central banks rarely give the truth with regards to such numbers, don't expect CCP's Econ staff to be any different.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#32 - 2012-02-08 21:10:40 UTC
One good upside to incursions is that you can get more exploration sites.

Since incursions, no longer do we see the Tengu/Loki+Noctis dualbox setup farming hideaways and forlorn hideouts like they were nothing and there are more DED complexes too.

Exploration is better for that.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Cass Lie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-02-08 21:22:31 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.



Central banks rarely give the truth with regards to such numbers, don't expect CCP's Econ staff to be any different.


They have given it, see above posts. But theirs and yours definition of an inflation may vary (eg. the prices of plex alone are clearly inflating/rising by more than 1% per month). Anyway, the information is publicly available within the eve client itself. You just have to define your own suitable market basket and analyze the data.
Ai Shun
#34 - 2012-02-08 22:01:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
And yes, it would be nice if we had a more compartmentalised number for only L4 combat missions and the number of people running them, but you go with what you have. As a result, the average incursion runner makes at least 30× more than the average mission runner.


And the numbers of mission runners are dropping in favour of running Incursions.

Minutes, p7 wrote:
The numbers suggest that missions completed per character are on a slow downward trend, while Incursions are moving upwards. The CSM commented that this was to be expected, missions are not that fun to run while Incursions are slightly more entertaining. It is furthermore evident that following the Sanctum nerf many people moved to running Incursions


It might be because Incursions sites are unbalanced in terms of risk/reward?

Minutes, p13 wrote:
The CSM pointed out to CCP that at present, almost all of the activity and issues with Incursions relate to the fact that Vanguard class sites are substantially easier and more profitable than any other class site. They have the highest payout for the time investment and the minimal risk involved, so these sites are causing overpopulation in Incursion areas and as a result other class sites are not run much at all. While it was generally agreed that Vanguard sites may need to be adjusted down by slightly increasing the risk or decreasing the rewards the other class sites (Scout, Assault, and HQ) need buffs to bring their risk/reward more in line


At least CCP is looking at it, but from that I'd be running Vanguard sites if I wanted to earn ISK.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2012-02-08 22:16:22 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
And the numbers of mission runners are dropping in favour of running Incursions.
Those and, as mentioned above, presumably anomalies and complexes as well. Since bounties and mission rewards don't follow the evolution of the rest of the economy and are significantly lagging behind, it seems like a fairly safe bet to say that high-end MRs and anomalists (ehm… yeah) are moving into incursions, even without the information provided by CCP in the minutes.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#36 - 2012-02-08 22:33:41 UTC
More isk is generated in incursions than in missions.
Especially because mission LP is a bigger isk sink in comparison to pure concord LP.

I am just commenting on some of the stuff ^
Adunh Slavy
#37 - 2012-02-08 22:44:17 UTC
Cass Lie wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Except there is no proof of extreme isk inflation.



Central banks rarely give the truth with regards to such numbers, don't expect CCP's Econ staff to be any different.


They have given it, see above posts. But theirs and yours definition of an inflation may vary (eg. the prices of plex alone are clearly inflating/rising by more than 1% per month).



My definition is based on the money supply, not price levels. Inflation rarely manifests in all prices at the same time. AFAIK, useful monetary data is not available.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#38 - 2012-02-08 23:01:01 UTC
Just will note that CCP can trim how many ISK are influxed into economy by incursions in a simple manner, as less incursion spawns = less income (opposed to "on demand" Lvl4s). I kinda wonder wether Dr. Whatshisname, the resident economist, suggested developers how many incursion should spawn per unit of time, in order to balance them in the big picture.

So, either players are cheating Dr. Whatshisname by abusing the incursions faucet, or CCP spoiled it and incursions are being spawn too often, or incursions already were factored and it's not them who cause the inflation.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-02-09 00:32:49 UTC
RL is taking me away from eve. It will be September (at the earliest) before i get back.

until this week I had:


several billion in assorted rigged-fitted-droned-ammoed-ships
multiple billions in assets
a good dose of liquid ISK.


as of today I have lots and lots of PLEX. Im aiming to have nearly a triple figure stack of PLEX in my hangar before i go awol.
I sold all my ships, I sold assets Ive had since 2006 and I emptied all my wallets to accomplish this.
Why did I do this?


go way back in time:

130 million ISK would buy you 90 days gametime (1.4m ISK/day)
moving onwards a few years 250 million would buy you 30 days gametime (8.3m ISK/day)
and today: 500m gets you 30 days gametime (16.6m ISK/day)

so since I started playing the cost per day has risen 1100% percent.


this rise has been most significant over the last year.


Im not sure if this is down to Incursions or not but to be honest right now, having put all my eggs in the PLEX basket, I really hope they dont nerf Incursions!
Something is driving the cost of PLEX up. I speculate that its a combination of less money for people in RL so less PLEX on market, and more ISK in game. The more ISK in game side is the interesting one because with no other changes except incursions where else can you look for what is driving this side of the price rise?


Long live Incursions, Ill see you in 6 months when my many PLEXes are worth 25% more than they are today :)
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Endeavour Starfleet
#40 - 2012-02-09 02:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Endeavour Starfleet
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Just will note that CCP can trim how many ISK are influxed into economy by incursions in a simple manner, as less incursion spawns = less income (opposed to "on demand" Lvl4s). I kinda wonder wether Dr. Whatshisname, the resident economist, suggested developers how many incursion should spawn per unit of time, in order to balance them in the big picture.

So, either players are cheating Dr. Whatshisname by abusing the incursions faucet, or CCP spoiled it and incursions are being spawn too often, or incursions already were factored and it's not them who cause the inflation.


Less incursion spawns = Complete giveaway to shiny runners.

How about nerfing sanctum and other nullsec raw isk income? A simple "trim" to bounty payout would fix inflation right? Too bad it will screw over those who don't run them all day.

Incursions do NOT need reductions they need Vanguards to be force completed and increased pay for higher sites. Thats all. No nukes.

Quote:
130 million ISK would buy you 90 days gametime (1.4m ISK/day)
moving onwards a few years 250 million would buy you 30 days gametime (8.3m ISK/day)
and today: 500m gets you 30 days gametime (16.6m ISK/day)


Ok let's just make this clear. The days of 250M plex are OVER. They will not come back because few will buy plex to sell at that low price. You can nuke incursions and any other direct income all you want. However, Eventually they will just stop because the RL value is far less.

Does this rather screw over newer players? Yes... However, Nobody should expect to be able to reasonably PLEX their accounts for atleast the first half year. Telling newer players that they can reasonably PLEX within the first month only harms the perception of EVE.