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Why did I miss?
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DIsposible Hero
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-02-07 21:47:51 UTC
Jejju wrote:
The tracking formula takes into account the tracking of the gun, the transversal speed fo the target, the turret signature resolution and the targets signatute resolution. I suspect you only knew about the first two. Full details here:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage

You missed because the only thing in your favour was range - slow guns, fast target, large sig guns, low sig target.

You would have had a better chance with medium guns, maybe in a 720 arty hurricane, but still there is a chance the dram could have evaded the guns. Really there is little that you can do to be guaranteed to gank a fast ship - and that is the way it should be.

Next time perhaps use some deception. Go in a autocannon armor hurricane, with 2 webs and 2 neuts, but sit 50 off the gate. He thinks you are arty fit and tries to get under your guns ...



This is brilliant! It relies on him engaging me in the first place, but then he tried to engage my arty tempest before I cloaked... I'll give it a shot if he shows up again.
Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
#22 - 2012-02-07 23:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Silas Shaw
Bibosikus wrote:
Lyrka Bloodberry wrote:
DIsposible Hero wrote:
But it sounds like tracking is the issue, not sig radius.


Actually, the influence of both were pretty much the same in this situation, although the sig radius had a bit more influence.

Considering the Dramiel flew with 5000 m/s and approached you at an angle of 30 degrees, the transversal velocity was 2500 m/s

Using these 2500 m/s transversal, the angular velocity would have been 0.021 rad/s at 120km.
The 1400mm Arty has a tracking speed of 0.009 rad/s.

The quotient of tracking speed and angular velocity thus is
0.021/0.009 = 2.333



On the other hand the sig radius of the Dramiel is 32m, opposing the 400m sig resolution of the 1400mm artys. The quotient here is
400/32 = 12.5

considering the MWD was turned on, the Dramiels Sig radius was quadrupled to 128m:
400/128 = 3.125


Note: High quotients are bad for the attacker. The higher the quotient, the worse.
It is 2.333 for the tracking issue and 3.125 for the sig radius issue.

The chance to hit in above situation is (considering that the Dramiel was within optimal range)
0.5^((2.333 * 3.125)^2) = 0.00000000000000000998 = 0.000000000000000998 %



(All calculations under the assumption that the Dramiel flew with 5000 m/s at an angle of 30% to the tempest. Different results if this assumption is incorrect, and it surely is. But: The chance to hit would still be extremely small, even if the transversal was much lower. Calculate it yourself if you've got better approximations for the velocity of the Dramiel.)



Now if only I could do that math in my head in a split second before any engagement.. Shocked


Lyrka got there before i did, and has basically nailed it.

As for "how to do this math fast and in your head" the simple slight of mind can be "BS guns, frigate, give or take 10x tracking problem" (yes, i know its not perfect. its a slight of mind).

How should the pest deal with it? Fire and pray. You then learn if hes an iddiot (Aproaching dead on means no transversal and you kill him) or not. if not, he comes to neut range, and then you neut and kill him with drones.
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#23 - 2012-02-07 23:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Tormak
Silas Shaw wrote:
Bibosikus wrote:
Lyrka Bloodberry wrote:
DIsposible Hero wrote:
But it sounds like tracking is the issue, not sig radius.


Actually, the influence of both were pretty much the same in this situation, although the sig radius had a bit more influence.

Considering the Dramiel flew with 5000 m/s and approached you at an angle of 30 degrees, the transversal velocity was 2500 m/s

Using these 2500 m/s transversal, the angular velocity would have been 0.021 rad/s at 120km.
The 1400mm Arty has a tracking speed of 0.009 rad/s.

The quotient of tracking speed and angular velocity thus is
0.021/0.009 = 2.333



On the other hand the sig radius of the Dramiel is 32m, opposing the 400m sig resolution of the 1400mm artys. The quotient here is
400/32 = 12.5

considering the MWD was turned on, the Dramiels Sig radius was quadrupled to 128m:
400/128 = 3.125


Note: High quotients are bad for the attacker. The higher the quotient, the worse.
It is 2.333 for the tracking issue and 3.125 for the sig radius issue.

The chance to hit in above situation is (considering that the Dramiel was within optimal range)
0.5^((2.333 * 3.125)^2) = 0.00000000000000000998 = 0.000000000000000998 %



(All calculations under the assumption that the Dramiel flew with 5000 m/s at an angle of 30% to the tempest. Different results if this assumption is incorrect, and it surely is. But: The chance to hit would still be extremely small, even if the transversal was much lower. Calculate it yourself if you've got better approximations for the velocity of the Dramiel.)



Now if only I could do that math in my head in a split second before any engagement.. Shocked


Lyrka got there before i did, and has basically nailed it.

As for "how to do this math fast and in your head" the simple slight of mind can be "BS guns, frigate, give or take 10x tracking problem" (yes, i know its not perfect. its a slight of mind).

How should the pest deal with it? Fire and pray. You then learn if hes an iddiot (Aproaching dead on means no transversal and you kill him) or not. if not, he comes to neut range, and then you neut and kill him with drones.


Not necessarily just drones, I think.

If he's neutralized, that means under 1,000 M/S. Pest with an MWD should do more than that, so MWDing away from him should allow you to strike his EHP down with a quality hit or two from your turrets.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
ROXGenghis
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-02-08 02:08:12 UTC
Don't let a frig near you, even if you have neuts. If the frig has a scram and a nos (and many do), they will shut down your MWD, ignore your neuts, and orbit inside your guns. Think about it this way: "why does that frig want to get close to me?"
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