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Quick ECM fix

Author
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-02-07 13:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
Just make it so that ECM mods break the target lock, in the way that burst ecm works (without the aoe effect of course). Bam. Done. When you add on retargeting, particularly for bigger ships, the actual jam time can be over 30 seconds. The hassle of re-targeting is enough, especially since you could be interrupted by another ecm cycle. Reduce the cycle on ecm modules as well by adding a skill that reduces cycle time for ecm by 5% per level. Fine tuning would be needed to get this right of course, but possibly the cycle time (baseline) could be taken back to 15 seconds as well. It's worth a try!

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

YoFault
Higher Than Everest
#2 - 2012-02-07 13:14:36 UTC
I completely agree!!!
Zindale
Spias Inc.
#3 - 2012-02-07 13:25:26 UTC
Do not see the point of this post cause that is what ECM does for the cycle of the module. If the cycle is successful for the second cycle then it prevents the re target.

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#4 - 2012-02-07 13:36:09 UTC
ECM is fine.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-02-07 13:39:51 UTC
Zindale wrote:
Do not see the point of this post cause that is what ECM does for the cycle of the module. If the cycle is successful for the second cycle then it prevents the re target.


It prevents you relocking for 20 seconds. I propose that be removed, and possibly reduce the cycle time for ecms.

Robert Caldera wrote:
ECM is fine.

Wrong, they need fixing. It's okay to be be wrong, I won't hold it against you.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#6 - 2012-02-07 14:09:30 UTC
Galphii wrote:
Wrong, they need fixing. It's okay to be be wrong, I won't hold it against you.


I think your problem is that you are trying to 1v1 a falcon.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-02-07 14:42:49 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Galphii wrote:
Wrong, they need fixing. It's okay to be be wrong, I won't hold it against you.


I think your problem is that you are trying to 1v1 a falcon.


And with zero ECCM.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-02-07 17:46:44 UTC
So how do you propose to buff ECM ships to make up for the fact the one thing they're good at is now borderline useless?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#9 - 2012-02-07 19:47:07 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
So how do you propose to buff ECM ships to make up for the fact the one thing they're good at is now borderline useless?

I propose that in order to balance this change all ECM ships are now capable of fitting doomsday weapons, and utilizing them on sub-capital ships.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-02-08 00:15:06 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
So how do you propose to buff ECM ships to make up for the fact the one thing they're good at is now borderline useless?

Easy: reducing the cycle time on the ecm mods (I've adjusted the OP). So, you've got 7 ECM's on your scorp, each one of them has a chance to break the lock. If you activate them 1 second apart, then every second you have a chance at breaking the lock on your target. The target can re-lock immediately, but they still have the locking time to deal with, and if they get hit again, they have to start from scratch. So instead of sitting there for 20 seconds at least, scratching your arse, you're still in the fight, spamming the lock function hoping to get a lock again. It's not that different from the current system, except the individual isn't shut down for so long, and if jams are failing, there's less time to wait to get another shot. It's elegant and there is precedent within the game (burst ecm).

I've fought with and against ecm ships with allies; this isn't about trying to solo a falcon P

This change might mean you need to put a bit of a tank on a ecm ship instead of relying on the ecm itself, which sounds fine to me. I'd fly one.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-02-08 00:15:38 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
So how do you propose to buff ECM ships to make up for the fact the one thing they're good at is now borderline useless?

I propose that in order to balance this change all ECM ships are now capable of fitting doomsday weapons, and utilizing them on sub-capital ships.

You're an f-ing tosser mate.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#12 - 2012-02-08 00:29:22 UTC
Well, one side effect I could see happening if this was implemented would be that sensor damps would be more useful (break someone's lock and then have a friend damp him so he has issues re-locking). I don't know that it's the right solution to ECM (or even if ECM needs changing at all), but I think that that'd be a side effect.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-02-08 00:38:20 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Well, one side effect I could see happening if this was implemented would be that sensor damps would be more useful (break someone's lock and then have a friend damp him so he has issues re-locking). I don't know that it's the right solution to ECM (or even if ECM needs changing at all), but I think that that'd be a side effect.

I just came on to post that exact point Big smile

Bring a friend along with sensor damps (which are getting buffed soon anyway) and he'll futz the locking time of your enemies, and bam, you've got your permajam back again, just that now you have to like, co-ordinate with you fleet buddies to make it happen. And yeah I'm not 100% sure this is the solution either, but I wanted to put it on the table for CCP.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Caldari Citizen20090217
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-02-08 00:54:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Caldari Citizen20090217
The other thing they could do with ECM is make ECCM less useless.

ECCM currently doesn't give enough protection and has no other benefit to the ship ie. if you face a non-ECM boat the slot is wasted. This is unique to ECCM - sensor boosters and tracking comps (counters to other ewar) give bonuses that help even if not tracking disrupted/damped.

Suggestion: make ECCM give your ship another sensor type as well as the strength boost. Now the jamming ship needs to score two simultaneous successful jams with two different races of jammer to actually jam you. Only downside I can see is multispecs may become FOTM. Or allow each active ECCM mod to ignore one successful jam and forget the racial stuff.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#15 - 2012-02-08 03:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Reducing ECM cycle time would only make them better. In the same 20 seconds with current cycle time, you get one chance per jammer. With a 10 second cycle time you would get 2 chances, that is twice as many opportunities. Now say I'm in my Falcon with a 14 jam strength trying to jam a Drake (19 sensor strength). Currently I have a 26% chance to miss. With your solution, the chance of missing a jam within the same 20 seconds with that same jammer would be 7%.

I wold gladly give up my 20sec jam cycles for this, and then go fit a single remote sensor damp w/scan res script. Or, God forbid, fly with a bro in an Arazu that has lots of damps fit. Even when you finally lock, you can't keep it or more than a few seconds. Hell, this would even make multispecs useful.

For fun, lets try the mathz. 4x multispecs jam str ~9.3, cycle time of 10 seconds. Chance to miss vs Drake per cycle is 1-(9.3/19)=51%. Stagger the jammers so one fires every 2.5 seconds over the course of the previous time of 20 seconds means 8 attempts every 20 seconds (love the new cycle time). 51%^8=.46% chance to miss. Over the course of the 10 seconds required to fire all jammers once the chance to miss would be 6.8%.

OP is now my favorite person in the whole Eve Online universe.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#16 - 2012-02-08 04:13:09 UTC
Caldari Citizen20090217 wrote:
The other thing they could do with ECM is make ECCM less useless.

ECCM currently doesn't give enough protection and has no other benefit to the ship ie. if you face a non-ECM boat the slot is wasted. This is unique to ECCM - sensor boosters and tracking comps (counters to other ewar) give bonuses that help even if not tracking disrupted/damped.


Doesn't being more difficult to probe down count as a side effect? (Just because you can't be unprobable anymore, it doesn't mean you can't be all-but-unprobable)


Caldari Citizen20090217 wrote:
Suggestion: make ECCM give your ship another sensor type as well as the strength boost. Now the jamming ship needs to score two simultaneous successful jams with two different races of jammer to actually jam you. Only downside I can see is multispecs may become FOTM. Or allow each active ECCM mod to ignore one successful jam and forget the racial stuff.


And this sounds exploitable.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-02-08 05:05:59 UTC
Caldari Citizen20090217 wrote:
The other thing they could do with ECM is make ECCM less useless.

ECCM currently doesn't give enough protection and has no other benefit to the ship ie. if you face a non-ECM boat the slot is wasted. This is unique to ECCM - sensor boosters and tracking comps (counters to other ewar) give bonuses that help even if not tracking disrupted/damped.

Suggestion: make ECCM give your ship another sensor type as well as the strength boost. Now the jamming ship needs to score two simultaneous successful jams with two different races of jammer to actually jam you. Only downside I can see is multispecs may become FOTM. Or allow each active ECCM mod to ignore one successful jam and forget the racial stuff.


That's the nature of the game. Weapon Disruptors don't help towards missiles. Defender Missiles don't help against guns. ECCM covers jamming. Just because you don't want to give up a mod for Anti ECM doesn't mean it needs to be changed.

ECM has a right to exist within game. I specialized in it because I like the nature of it. The Science & Electronic warfare aspect. Its a flavor. And I don't want it changed. The counter is in game for it and if you opt to neglect it you suffer when faced against it.

People don't like equipping warp core stabilizers to deal with scrambling but if they don't they pay the price.
Limerance Zet-Giry
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-02-08 06:00:08 UTC
Galphii wrote:
Just make it so that ECM mods break the target lock, in the way that burst ecm works. Bam. Done. The hassle of re-targeting is enough, especially since you could be interrupted by another ecm cycle. Reduce the cycle on ecm modules as well; perhaps a10 second baseline, with a skill to reduce that by 5% each time.

ECM is fine.
If you re-target 10 seconds - it's your problem. Don't fight on a BS against Falcon. There is Rapier for example, which locks on Falcon in a moment.
If you fly BS, fit ECCM, or have a friend with a hac/assault in a fleet.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-02-08 06:14:02 UTC
I have no issues with ECM in it's current form, but I can see why people would like to change it.

Someone over on the-site-that-shall-not-be-named.com suggested that the sensor strength reduces the time that you are locked out. Something to the effect of Jam Time=20(Jam Strength/Sensor Strength) with a hard limit of 20 seconds.

I think that this is an acceptable comprimise with the stipulation that all jams are autohit just like every other ****ing EWAR.

BTW if this change goes through it'll break ECM so badly that you'll wish for the old system. Just saying.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-

Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-02-08 08:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
Bring a friend along with sensor damps (which are getting buffed soon anyway) and he'll futz the locking time of your enemies, and bam, you've got your permajam back again, just that now you have to like, co-ordinate with you fleet buddies to make it happen. And yeah I'm not 100% sure this is the solution either, but I wanted to put it on the table for CCP.

(And some other drivel)


Ok, worth using - maybe.
Worth dedicating two ships to, for a chance at mildly inconveniencing 1-2 at best?
Not in the slightest.

Quote:
BTW if this change goes through it'll break ECM so badly that you'll wish for the old system. Just saying.

This.
ECM ships are the only EWAR ships in the game that have no secondary functions, besides the Rook which has some token DPS. This isn't like tracking disruptors, where nerfing those would still keep the ships bonused towards them useful for other things. You break ECM, you break 6 ships to the point where they're not worth flying.

That's why it needs much more careful consideration.

One of the best suggestions I've seen actually was changing ECM so while it always hits, it doesn't break locks: what it does is slash the range/(?)effectiveness of modules like RR and EWAR.
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