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[Proposal] Get rid of learning implants.

Author
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#401 - 2012-02-01 23:48:31 UTC
wow you totally didn't read the fact that i left out hardwirings

might as well biomass your forum alt and roll a new one!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#402 - 2012-02-02 00:13:41 UTC
This is a surprisingly well thought out, simple idea, and it is consistent with the removal of learning skills. It also fixes a whole lot of issues regarding null PvP and jumpclones, as mentioned.
Mourning Souls
Minmatar Republic
#403 - 2012-02-02 00:22:27 UTC
I dislike agreeing with (TEST)icles and Goons, but I like this idea.
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#404 - 2012-02-02 04:31:00 UTC  |  Edited by: GetSirrus
Anonymous Forum Alt? Like an elected CSM in public office, making a comment for the removal of learning implants - and there is no name in the minutes?

Sounds to me like everything is working as intended. You don't want to take the risk of expensive implants, then you do not get the reward of accelerated learning. The real risk isn't the loss of training rate, it’s the cost of replacement. In the PvP universe as so many recite includes the accumulation rate of skills, a contest it pleases me to beat you in. Why should the game change based on "your style of play"? What a disgusting concept! If you want to win this contest, the game already has given you the mechanism to level the playing field. Your request parallels hi-sec carebears crying over suicide ganks or Incursion disruption. (not their "style of play" they say). In the cold harsh Eve, I have no sympathy for either them or you.

Yes, Learning are seeded via the Loyal Point system. But they are also available readily on the market? Are you telling everybody, you do not trade at all? As an example; Outer Ring Excavation goodies are only available on Loyal Points - should these removed or seeded through another system? And removing attribute bonuses – wouldn’t that make plus three implants with secondary bonus next to worthless?

So, the answer remains no. Welcome the Skill Point Interdiction.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#405 - 2012-02-02 13:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I would agree. The only way to truly know would be the stats.


Ask, and we shall receive.

CCP Diagoras wrote:

Total PVP high sec kills in Jan 2012; 50,460 with 22,852 victims and 10,151 killers.


CCP Diagoras wrote:

7,367 capsules destroyed in high sec belonging to 5,915 different chars, by 2,117 different characters in Jan 2012.



So, 14.5% of kills in hisec result in a podding. At least this is how it worked out in January. Over the course of a year then, 15-20% would be more than generous of an assumption.

edit -- So a 1 in 5 chance of losing your pod... learning implants are fine.
edit 2 -- yes, this is HISEC ONLY. In no way am I implying that nullsec is anywhere as "safe" for your pod.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#406 - 2012-02-02 14:08:50 UTC
Nice. And that is just highsec as you said. Low and nullsec, especially nullsec, probably have far more pod kills. Not to mention WH space. Honestly with all the PvP I have seen in WH space I have seen very few pods get away...especially with bubblers. Either way. You were right in that the number is lower than I thought.

I don't think this is a question of would removing learning implants encourage more PvP, I think it definately would. The question is how would the ISK from no longer losing those implants balance out in the game.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Velicitia
XS Tech
#407 - 2012-02-02 15:20:35 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Nice. And that is just highsec as you said. Low and nullsec, especially nullsec, probably have far more pod kills. Not to mention WH space. Honestly with all the PvP I have seen in WH space I have seen very few pods get away...especially with bubblers. Either way. You were right in that the number is lower than I thought.

I don't think this is a question of would removing learning implants encourage more PvP, I think it definately would. The question is how would the ISK from no longer losing those implants balance out in the game.


I don't think lowsec would be much higher than highsec -- still can't bubble ... though on the other hand, the PvP guys are probably "better" at the twitch-lock that you need to nab a pod... I'd be surprised if it's above 33%.

Nullsec/W-space is probably closer to 50% (or even higher), so the question of implants there is probably valid.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#408 - 2012-02-02 15:29:54 UTC
Following this logic all implants are pointless as someone who want's to be hyper optimized in X needs to have the implants for that and will then not want to play the game incase they lose them.

so

although they bug me

I'll just stick to using what I can afford to lose.
Hilmar Myhra
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#409 - 2012-02-06 17:50:04 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
Following this logic all implants are pointless as someone who want's to be hyper optimized in X needs to have the implants for that and will then not want to play the game incase they lose them.


Most Hardwiring implants have an actual impact on your ship. If you don't fly with them, they bring you nothing. Learning implants don't work that way. There is a similar issue with, say, industry implants, but it's a minor one as characters with these implants rarely undock to pvp anyway.

Learning implants affect everyone and make people less willing to risk in pvp, so...



/Supported
Disdaine
#410 - 2012-02-07 02:11:22 UTC
Hilmar Myhra wrote:
Learning implants affect everyone and make people less willing to risk in pvp, so...


Found the problem.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#411 - 2012-02-07 03:11:12 UTC
I wouldnt mind losing the learning implants, but do like their uniqueness in the game. Not sure what to replace them with.

Only think I can think of is like learning stones in CQ, not sure if that will be a hit though. Other then that can only think of learning skills again :). Make learning skills like rigging is designed. Cybernetics for the core skill. Then the attribute skill maybe it will be a 2x skill to train after cybernetics. Want the learning skill at 4 train cyber to 4 then that skill. or want 5 train cyber to 5 then that skill. Maybe make the attribute skill a 1x one but thought that maybe too cheap.

Only thing I can think of, maybe better ideas.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#412 - 2012-02-07 04:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Disdaine wrote:
Hilmar Myhra wrote:
Learning implants affect everyone and make people less willing to risk in pvp, so...


Found the problem.


the opinion of a pro-incarna, anti-csm incursion running roleplayer alt is hardly relevant

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#413 - 2012-02-07 05:41:17 UTC
Think a lot of people are totally missing the point in this thread.

It's not about riskless pvp in null sec. Anyone living in null for longer than 10 minutes will probably be using a jump clone if they don't want to lose implants or have so much isk that they don't care anyway.

This is about removing an unnecessary barrier to new players that will not have jump clones nor the isk to replace implants if they get podded.

All the things mentioned in this thread about people not participating in fleet is usually from newer players that can't afford the losses the bitter vets can.

Anything that makes the game fun for new players can only ever be a good thing.

And before anyone says anything, yes I do live in null and I have not had any implants in over 3 years so I don't run any risk in loosing pods anyway. I couldn't care less about the 2-3 days I could save on learning something by having learning implants. It isn't that important. Playing the game and killing things is.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#414 - 2012-02-07 10:28:18 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
Think a lot of people are totally missing the point in this thread.

It's not about riskless pvp in null sec. Anyone living in null for longer than 10 minutes will probably be using a jump clone if they don't want to lose implants or have so much isk that they don't care anyway.

This is about removing an unnecessary barrier to new players that will not have jump clones nor the isk to replace implants if they get podded.

All the things mentioned in this thread about people not participating in fleet is usually from newer players that can't afford the losses the bitter vets can.

Anything that makes the game fun for new players can only ever be a good thing.

And before anyone says anything, yes I do live in null and I have not had any implants in over 3 years so I don't run any risk in loosing pods anyway. I couldn't care less about the 2-3 days I could save on learning something by having learning implants. It isn't that important. Playing the game and killing things is.


There used to be corps that allowed people to get free jump clones. Is this no longer the case? Can't null sec alliances let people know how to get free jump clones?

Yeah people who learn about the game actually have advantages over people who remain ignorrant. Do we need to flatten that learning curve? Do we need to dumb down the game for everyone, so we can get more noobs in null sec blobs?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Bonny Lee
State War Academy
Caldari State
#415 - 2012-02-07 10:41:19 UTC
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
Not supported. But I would support eliminating the timer on same-station clone swaps.

Just like this.
Bonny Lee
State War Academy
Caldari State
#416 - 2012-02-07 10:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Bonny Lee
Smiling Menace wrote:
Think a lot of people are totally missing the point in this thread.

It's not about riskless pvp in null sec. Anyone living in null for longer than 10 minutes will probably be using a jump clone if they don't want to lose implants or have so much isk that they don't care anyway.

This is about removing an unnecessary barrier to new players that will not have jump clones nor the isk to replace implants if they get podded.

All the things mentioned in this thread about people not participating in fleet is usually from newer players that can't afford the losses the bitter vets can.

Anything that makes the game fun for new players can only ever be a good thing.

And before anyone says anything, yes I do live in null and I have not had any implants in over 3 years so I don't run any risk in loosing pods anyway. I couldn't care less about the 2-3 days I could save on learning something by having learning implants. It isn't that important. Playing the game and killing things is.


So why remove it? Why cant we find another solution.
I do want to keep Implants and learning implants. They are part of EvE.
Make it easier to get your first jumpclone perhaps.
Make it possible to switch without timer if you are on the same station.

All problems are solved without deleting stuff out off the game.

And one thing you should consider:
NOT Everything that is fun for new players is good for EvE.
It would be fun for new players to fight in a titan after a month. But it wouldnt be good for eve.
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#417 - 2012-02-07 12:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Shazzam Vokanavom
Bonny Lee wrote:
So why remove it? Why cant we find another solution.
I do want to keep Implants and learning implants. They are part of EvE.
Make it easier to get your first jumpclone perhaps.
Make it possible to switch without timer if you are on the same station.

All problems are solved without deleting stuff out off the game.

And one thing you should consider:
NOT Everything that is fun for new players is good for EvE.
It would be fun for new players to fight in a titan after a month. But it wouldnt be good for eve.


One possible solution could be to add insurance for implants.

"Reduces" but does not completley remove adverse risk associated with using them.

Adds another potentially significant ISK sink into the game.

Dual benefit without the need to simply delete content.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#418 - 2012-02-07 17:24:33 UTC
Bonny Lee wrote:
It would be fun for new players to fight in a titan after a month. But it wouldnt be good for eve.


One of our newbies actually scammed his way into one within his first two months

okay, not really

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#419 - 2012-02-07 20:27:48 UTC
Supported.

Oh and all the dodos squawking "risk vs reward" where is the reward exactly?

Learning implants are a place where not taking risks is rewarded while taking risks is punished.

Sit in high sec with +5 learnings gain faster training, risk little.
Fight in nullsec with no implants lose training speed while risking much.

Oh and in PVP it's not a question of whether one is going to lose something rather than when, it's not a risk it's cost.

Even beyond the whole question of cost there is also the factor of availability.

Personally I have no problem risking +4s 40 mil isn't all that much in the scheme of things, but atm I'm stuck in a +3 clone not because I wasn't willing to pay for +4s for it but because there were none in the market when I made the clone in question. So now when it comes to a simple question of whether to go that clone (which is in our staging system) I have to calculate the chances of something actually happening to make the loss of learning speed worth it at least until that clone is destroyed.

Training speed is just to valuable a thing, particularly to new players, Once one has a solid skill set it's less so but when you're first starting out and you have all these "required" skills that are on opposing attribute sets it's a BFD (that's Big *#$&$&ing Deal to you civies )

Oh and faceless forum alt cowards, your opinions are discarded because there is no way to check your bonifides no way to see if might actually have some experience to support your opinions and arguments. As an experienced debater I know full well that it's often very easy to support a bullshit argument if you toss out enough unfounded assertions.

You have no credibility and your arguments are worth exactly squat.


Implants are a significant isk sink.. got any actual cites on that?

Because the reality is that most people just simply are not going to be risking expensive implants on a regular basis.

This is something that you rattle off because you think it must be true while the reality is that it just isn't. Learning implants particularly the expensive ones simply aren't replaced that often. Most nullsec PVPers don't wear them so it's not like they're burning through them at a prodigious rate and high and low sec players aren't losing many of them either.

Not at the rate to make them a "significant isk sink"

No for the most part the expensive learning implants get stuck in a high sec clone and left kept in the safe confines of high sec so there is no risk there only reward to the risk averse.

If you are going to base your arguments on "risk vs reward" then you should damned well be sure that the reward scales proportionally with the risk rather than inversely.


Implants are a place where all the rewards go to the non-risk takers.

Personally I agree with the general sentiment that attributes should be removed entirely they are a silly mechanic that really only act to limit peoples choices. and no that's the same as suggesting that everyone gets all skills at 5, prioritizing skills based on need rather than some long term map plan is not the same as eliminating planning all together.

And to all the "I'm willing to risk my implants anyone who doesn't is just a wuss", good for you, You wanna a cookie?

It remains a stupid mechanic that discourages risk taking by rewarding the risk averse.

+1 support
Tari Tari
#420 - 2012-02-07 20:41:54 UTC
+1

Absolutely no need to encourage sitting in safety just to train optimally. It defeats the entire premise of getting new players into the action from day one and getting them into competetive and useful positions as soon as possible. Furthermore it rewards risk-free pvp and promotes the most nauseating faggotry (see: Amamake residents such as Heretics and their Orcas).