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Idears for a Flagship in high/lowsec warfare
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Mike AntHunt
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#41 - 2012-02-06 20:50:26 UTC
As far as a "Flagship", it really depends but a command ship is always a good choice. If you want something with a lot of tank and DPS, a BS isnt a bad option and cheaper than going t2 cruiser/battlecruiser route. If you don't mind the cost, a Heavy interdictor, command ship, or Faction Battleship (pirate) would be really good. A lot of fleets I've seen had a Faction/deadspace bhaalgorn with neuts and double webs. Just keep in mind that a ship like that will need to be fed capacitor from a logistics ship or another Battleship that has two dedicated transfers.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#42 - 2012-02-06 22:10:34 UTC
Not sure where your getting your numbers from, i dont get nearly that much assuming all V, or are we talking Tengu Boost/Drugs/Slaves, even so, the cap lasts like 30 seconds with all reps on, just dont see why its better than a scimi, or a pair of Basis

Edit, Crystals, I am le tired
shal ri
Short Bus Window Licker
#43 - 2012-02-06 22:47:58 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Not sure where your getting your numbers from, i dont get nearly that much assuming all V, or are we talking Tengu Boost/Drugs/Slaves, even so, the cap lasts like 30 seconds with all reps on, just dont see why its better than a scimi, or a pair of Basis

Edit, Crystals, I am le tired



lmao u really dont know much do you. u talk like theres only 1 type of fit u can use for a basi. different fits mean different outcomes in terms of use for a ship. learn something.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#44 - 2012-02-06 22:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Not sure where your getting your numbers from, i dont get nearly that much assuming all V, or are we talking Tengu Boost/Drugs/Slaves, even so, the cap lasts like 30 seconds with all reps on, just dont see why its better than a scimi, or a pair of Basis

Edit, Crystals, I am le tired


You can't run 5 RRs + local tank. You can flat out run your local tank, and usually you can get 2-3 RRs going on your mates. The cap on its actually pretty good - way better than the Scim video I linked (which was actually being hit by 5 neuts). Really though, if you're running your logi's tank flat out and still have to be repping your mates, you're probably way outgunned to start with. (These are the best fights, btw).

Anyway, its better than a Scim because:
- Despite the fact its relatively "weak" against EM damage, it actually tanks way better than a Scim in most common situations.
- It has 5 RRs - it simply puts out more RR.
- It has a cloak, which means you're able to get fights. Like I said, you'd be amazed how often 10 man BS gangs avoid engaging 4 BCs and a solo Basi.
- Its not super fast, but its fast enough for almost all engagements. You'll start having real problems when everyone is running around in Cynabals, but that's just a case of your side not shaping the engagement correctly.

-Liang

Ed: Also, note that a similar Scimitar has the same restriction on running local tank + RR. It tanks better against EM damage, but the resist profile is pretty **** so it actually tanks worse in most common situations.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#45 - 2012-02-06 23:26:36 UTC
I can see it working fairly well sometimes, just getting raped by anybody that brought a Recon, with the possible exception of the Curse/Pilgrim which should really die before they get within neut range (40k if memory serves).

Just feel like a Scimi which although being unable to tank gate guns would fair better in the Range control/speed factor, which is one of the best defences for logi tbh (speed and range)

And to the man up there of course there are various Basi fits and of course my comments only apply to this one, being its the one I'm discussing.

(Oh and Liang I dont dislike you honestly :P)

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#46 - 2012-02-06 23:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Danny John-Peter wrote:
I can see it working fairly well sometimes, just getting raped by anybody that brought a Recon, with the possible exception of the Curse/Pilgrim which should really die before they get within neut range (40k if memory serves).

Just feel like a Scimi which although being unable to tank gate guns would fair better in the Range control/speed factor, which is one of the best defences for logi tbh (speed and range)

And to the man up there of course there are various Basi fits and of course my comments only apply to this one, being its the one I'm discussing.

(Oh and Liang I dont dislike you honestly :P)


Comments:
- The Curse isn't that big of a deal (see linked scim video. It has a named booster and T1 rigs and was facing 66% more neuting power than a curse represents)
- The Arazu isn't that big of a deal because most engagements happen hugged up against a gate anyway.
- The Falcon (and ECM drones) fucks everyone. Most of the time our fleets lasted long enough to drive the Falcon off the field. We very rarely lost friendlies, but when we did it was usually to overwhelming damage or ECM.
- Being unable to tank sentry guns means that your logi is worthless after 15 seconds into any fight. That's... just not acceptable if your idea of PVP is any more than ganking haulers on a gate. Note that its trivial to get a Scim to tank sentries as well (and in fact, in the video linked I was tanking sentries + domi with 5 neuts on me).
- Range/Speed is alright but really if your fleet is aware of its limitations its generally easy enough to contain the fight in the 140km diameter sphere you can affect.
- The Scim is just flat inferior in every way except for range control. Afterall, its fast enough, sports a superior tank, reps more, and sports a cloak so you can actually get fights.

-Liang

Ed: Justification. Also, I don't mind people questioning the fit - or me. I don't mind discussing logi fits with people who actually fly logis - especially if they run in low sec or run solo logis. I just draw the line at the **** those two fuckwits pulled last time we "sparred".

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Robertson Nolen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-02-07 02:00:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Robertson Nolen
Danny John-Peter wrote:
I can see it working fairly well sometimes, just getting raped by anybody that brought a Recon, with the possible exception of the Curse/Pilgrim which should really die before they get within neut range (40k if memory serves).

Just feel like a Scimi which although being unable to tank gate guns would fair better in the Range control/speed factor, which is one of the best defences for logi tbh (speed and range)

And to the man up there of course there are various Basi fits and of course my comments only apply to this one, being its the one I'm discussing.

(Oh and Liang I dont dislike you honestly :P)




Seriously you guys need to put a ****** filter into who you invite into your fleets. This **** is the best loot I have ever received.

On the topic of the thread, why is there no love for the Vulture. They aren't that crappy
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#48 - 2012-02-07 10:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
How do you find it deals with LR Webbing from Huginns/Rapiers being it would destroy there sig tank entirely with the Reduced speed/painting.


Oh and Dat Guardian 0.o

Edit; Gate guns are something I have little experience with tanking in Logis, I generally use 1600 plated canes for agressing in low sec, I also discovered you cant Sig tank gate guns, much to my Crusaders demise...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#49 - 2012-02-07 10:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Danny John-Peter wrote:
How do you find it deals with LR Webbing from Huginns/Rapiers being it would destroy there sig tank entirely with the Reduced speed/painting.


Oh and Dat Guardian 0.o


They literally weren't noticeable from my perspective. You're talking about the ship like it lacks tank in some way - yet the reality of the situation is that it has a dual rep Myrm tank on its only low resist when sitting totally still. I'm not totally sure about volley bleedthrough, but the raw tank numbers indicate the ship should be able to straight up face tank an overheated Vindicator. The only time I had to tank a Vindi + Hype + Sentries + Hurricane/Cyclone + other ****, I didn't have any trouble.

Also, the Guardian kinda sucks at the solo logi role - or at least I haven't found a way to abuse it and get similar results.


-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#50 - 2012-02-07 10:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Guardian needs to be in groups to be effective, its sig tank combined with EHP is nice, like 65+ EHP with legion bonus and around 65M Sig Rad with Loki bonus is pretty damn fine.

Apparently the Onieros no longer sucks though.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#51 - 2012-02-07 11:02:42 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Guardian needs to be in groups to be effective, its sig tank combined with EHP is nice, like 65+ EHP with legion bonus and around 65M Sig Rad with Loki bonus is pretty damn fine.

Apparently the Onieros no longer sucks though.


I dunno, I'd say both the Ony and the Scim still suck. The Scim sucks because its just utterly outclassed by the Basi (even in the one niche where you would REALLY expect it to succeed) and the Ony sucks because the Guardian just works better for the blob warfare that you normally see armor rolling in. I blame the tracking link bonus, but I understand its really popular for people who need to shave another 15 seconds off their next Incursion NCO.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#52 - 2012-02-07 11:12:56 UTC
Im a big fan of the Scimi in big groups, requires less interdependancy and works better than an MWD basi for fast moving fleets IMO. The Oneiros I have seen around a bit recently, has the same EHP/Sig adavantages of the Guardian but I've not seen it in any major engagements so I cant really judge it as yet.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#53 - 2012-02-07 11:17:24 UTC
And have you considered swapping the second invul out for a Photon Scat, less cap usage an a better overall resist profile.

Being that EM damage is so prevalent.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#54 - 2012-02-07 11:18:49 UTC
The Basi is most certainly slower than the Scim, but as long as its fast enough its not that big of a deal. Of course, definitions of fast enough vary widely, but considering I normally run with an AB I don't think I'm overly concerned about just how fast I'm going.

As to the Basi having an interdependency problem: I've honestly got to say thats pure hogwash. The Basi fit I posted, if nothing else, should utterly disabuse you of that notion.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#55 - 2012-02-07 11:19:33 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
And have you considered swapping the second invul out for a Photon Scat, less cap usage an a better overall resist profile.

Being that EM damage is so prevalent.


Your core mistake is thinking EM damage is common.

It isn't.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#56 - 2012-02-07 11:26:12 UTC
Most Minnie ships pack Barrage/RF EMP in my experience, them being rather common.

Saying that I have found myself using hail recently 0.o

And jeeze, I just noticed that Basi runs all 5 reps stable assuming no local tank, thats actually pretty damn Impressive...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#57 - 2012-02-07 11:34:54 UTC
I tend to find that far more canes run Barrage or PP than EMP, and I don't really worry about it overly much until they get on top of me and try to do the dual web no-tank thing - at which point they're promptly nuked down by my gang mates. Its not like its a contest of me just sitting there face tanking entire fleets - if someone gave me trouble, I let the guys know and they went down fast.

Also, yes, it runs 5 RRs totally cap stable. You can actually pulse your local tank for a while too, or you can run the local tank flat out and still put out 2-3 RRs worth of repping. You'll eventually cap out but coming back from even being totally capped out is surprisingly quick.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#58 - 2012-02-07 11:40:52 UTC
In that case I approve, Scimis are still better looking, but yeah, I think I approve of that one.

You run any kind of drugs/implants with it??
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#59 - 2012-02-07 11:45:12 UTC
Blue pill and mindflood both look really snazzy, but I get really skittish about side effects. Anything that negatively affects EHP, reps, or cap is just off limits IMO. That leaves you looking at synth, which I didn't feel added a lot to the ship. For implants, I ran with a HG crystal set and 5% cap implants. I think I filled the rest of the implant slots out with mobility stuff.

Anyway, it was a hella fun ride while it lasted... just a shame that Heretics don't do that kind of fleet. Then again, Heretics is pretty static so being known for fielding logis would make the PVP dry up real fast. Meh.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#60 - 2012-02-07 11:49:14 UTC
Kinda thought the HG Crystals would come into it, I run Blue Pill/Mindflood cyclone sometimes, the side effects arent too much of an issue because its not an expensive lost, I keep em in the Hold of my carrier too, for emergencies.

Do you find difficutlies with arty or other high alpha weapons its Buffer aint huge and a good shot from a couple of Nados or even a Cane or two could Strip the shields straight off it.