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Help understanding sig strengths
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Mr Chili Palmer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-02-06 17:07:58 UTC
i am actually finding it difficult to understand how to tell the difference with signatures etc, probably an age and noobness thing.

core scanner strength is 62.4
i cannot use a deep space probe yet so i use a combat one to show everything on first scan its strength is 31.2

anyway for example i done a quick scan and the only result i got back was a cosmic signature with a strength of 0.80% this was using the core probe...am i correct in assuming that this sig would be a waste of time continuing to scan it down?

oh i must add i was/am trying to follow this guide located here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6457&find=unread

"If at first you don't succeed, remove all evidence you ever tried"

"If your boss is getting you down, look at him through the prongs of a fork and imagine him in jail"
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2012-02-06 17:32:10 UTC
That guide is really quite specific to deep space probes, which detect (pretty much) everything in the system, whether it can be scanned with a core probe or a combat probe. Using the methodology there with non-deep space probes is a mistake.

Since you don't have access to DSPs, the best thing you can do is to drop a slew of core probes and then spread them out to cover as much of the system as possible. Hit scan and see what you find. Then you can narrow down on the various signatures by moving your probes and shrinking your scan range until you get a warpable hit. With 62.4 strength, you might have trouble narrowing some of the harder sites, but keep at it and you'll get some.
Gavin DeVries
JDI Industries
#3 - 2012-02-06 19:47:24 UTC
There is a range factor in determining how high the singal strength result of a scan is. The reason DSPs work for this is that when you set them to the max range, their range is so high and sensor strength is so low that just how close the actual site is to the probe really doesn't matter. You're going to wind up within .1 of the calculated result even if the probe happens to be sitting right on top of the site. With any other type of probe, the strength and range are such that position suddenly makes a difference in your result, so you can't really use a table like that.

PVP is a question with no single right answer, but a lot of wrong ones.
Infernal Travesty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-02-07 04:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Infernal Travesty
As said above but, with a lot of practice and probing, knowing the information the above posters have given you can help you identify which group the sig you see on scan MIGHT belong to.

Say for example a Guristas Watch sig scanned with a 32AU probe smack bang in the middle of the system where your probe is at 0.63%. From this information you can guess that signatures from 0.57% - 0.63% MIGHT be within the same sig group as the Watch.

There is always plenty of room for error on these occasions, but you can always make that guess.

Here's an example. Those annoying Federal Navy combat sites in Caldari space are always 0.37%-0.42% with my average skills and no ship/rig bonuses.
Mr Chili Palmer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-02-07 08:23:00 UTC
many thanks for the replies, apologies for my late response, been at work all night :( bloody cold too.

i need to train up now for the dsp :)

"If at first you don't succeed, remove all evidence you ever tried"

"If your boss is getting you down, look at him through the prongs of a fork and imagine him in jail"
Mnemosyne Gloob
#6 - 2012-02-07 11:02:22 UTC
People say that you can't reliably separate signal strengths with normal probes and need Deep Space probes to do it, but that's not really true.

Lets say i drop a normal probe at 32 au and see a signature at .7 %. I know it might just be a DED 5, because those would be at .8 % (it is .7 % here, because the sig is quite a bit away from my probe). The band above would be at around 1.4 % and the one below at around .4 %. The bands are separated enough to account for variation by distance from probe location, even with normal probes.

You can actually use St Mio's chart with your probe strength for normal probes and the displayed percentages are close enough to what you will see ... or just probe enough and you will know it by heart.
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-02-08 02:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ajita al Tchar
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
People say that you can't reliably separate signal strengths with normal probes and need Deep Space probes to do it, but that's not really true.

Lets say i drop a normal probe at 32 au and see a signature at .7 %. I know it might just be a DED 5, because those would be at .8 % (it is .7 % here, because the sig is quite a bit away from my probe). The band above would be at around 1.4 % and the one below at around .4 %. The bands are separated enough to account for variation by distance from probe location, even with normal probes.

You can actually use St Mio's chart with your probe strength for normal probes and the displayed percentages are close enough to what you will see ... or just probe enough and you will know it by heart.


^^^ QFT

I do this all the time with combat probes on a character that doesn't have DSPs. In fact, I've even compared the results of scans between two characters where the only skill difference was Astro 5, so no differences that affect the strength of a single probe. The results I got with one 64au combat probe were consistent with what i got with one 256au deep space probe (for each sig, the signal strength from a DSP scan was almost exactly half that from a combat probe scan, as to be exptected), although there was a bit more distinction between these sig strength bands for the DSP. Not enough, however, to warrant saying that "this doesn't work with combat probes". It works, although you'll have more confusability issues with signatures that are very weak when you use combat probes. It even works with core probes, the problem is that a whole lot of systems aren't small enough to fit in core probe range. Also, the better your skills are, the more distinct these sig strength bands become.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2012-02-08 03:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Re: deep space probes.

I can't comment on complexes, but I did years of wormhole probing.

There are basically 3 sizes of stuff: large, medium, and small. Large has twice the signal strength of medium. Medium has twice the signal strength of small. There is the rare stuff between those groups, but not that common (in w-space at least), so it really stood out.

You can use a core probe at max 32 au range, but a combat probe works even better at 64 au. Deep space probes are just faster on large solar systems over 64 au across.

Can't get coverage? Position your probes with max range to cover the entire solar system, then only leave one activated at a time (i.e. so you don't have to move them until you find what you are looking for).

So just use a single active probe, sort by signal strength, and remember the 2 times rule.

Example:
* 0.90 0.42 0.19 (large medium small)
* 1.86 0.92 0.45 (large medium small)
Zircon Dasher
#9 - 2012-02-09 03:51:15 UTC
You can use whatever probes you wish to emulate the DSP guide. It is just a matter of what/how/where/why you are probing as to which probe class is "good enough".

Here is some spreadsheet funtime

Assume:

System radius of 28AU
Core probe str = 100
Combat probe str = 50
DPS str = 10

Single probe maximum theoretical strength for a site (Smallest -> Largest Signal Size) that is 0AU* and 32AU from the probe location:

core
(at 0)...... 0.24/ 0.33/ 0.49/ 0.78/ 0.98/ 1.30/ 1.95/ 3.91
(at 32).... 0.09/ 0.12/ 0.18/ 0.29/ 0.36/ 0.48/ 0.72/ 1.44

Combat
(at 0)...... 0.12/ 0.16/ 0.24/ 0.39/ 0.49/ 0.65/ 0.98/ 1.95
(at 32).... 0.10/ 0.13/ 0.19/ 0.30/ 0.38/ 0.51/ 0.76/ 1.52

DSP
(at 0)...... 0.02/ 0.03/ 0.05/ 0.08/ 0.10/ 0.13/ 0.20/ 0.39
(at 32).... 0.02/ 0.03/ 0.05/ 0.08/ 0.10/ 0.13/ 0.19/ 0.38


*swiftandbitter uses (functionally) 0AU distance from probe for determining size.


As to whether the site you saw was "worth it"- depends on what you are looking for.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-02-09 07:01:53 UTC
Lots of awesome advice in this thread o/
Bent Barrel
#11 - 2012-02-09 07:49:03 UTC
awesome thread, bookmarking ...
Mr Chili Palmer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-02-09 08:33:34 UTC
well thats another set of real life night shifts over with..........many thanks for the replies i have a much better understanding of the signatures now.

"If at first you don't succeed, remove all evidence you ever tried"

"If your boss is getting you down, look at him through the prongs of a fork and imagine him in jail"
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#13 - 2012-02-09 15:06:14 UTC
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
People say that you can't reliably separate signal strengths with normal probes and need Deep Space probes to do it, but that's not really true.

Lets say i drop a normal probe at 32 au and see a signature at .7 %. I know it might just be a DED 5, because those would be at .8 % (it is .7 % here, because the sig is quite a bit away from my probe). The band above would be at around 1.4 % and the one below at around .4 %. The bands are separated enough to account for variation by distance from probe location, even with normal probes.

You can actually use St Mio's chart with your probe strength for normal probes and the displayed percentages are close enough to what you will see ... or just probe enough and you will know it by heart.


This is how I first did it, before experimenting with DSP. Its a bit more work and takes a keen sense of wtf you're actually doing but it does work.

With that said, someone said the deviation of DSP is .1. Its not. Its more like .01
Elisa Fir
Luminoctis
#14 - 2012-02-14 19:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Elisa Fir
Although the attraction in exploration is about finding unknown mysteries, I think it won't hurt to know the (simplified) math behind the reported signatue stength Blink

The formula for calculating reported Signal Strength (= the strenght you see in your scan results) is:

  • Signal Strength = Signature Size * Base Scan Strength / 512 * 100%

The above formula is valid if you use 1 (deep space) probe set at 256 AU*

The possible Signature Sizes are the same for all security levels and all wormhole classes. If you can get the hardest signature size in highsec to 100%, you can do it everywhere.

    There are 8 different Signature Sizes:
  • 1.25%
  • 2.5%
  • 5.0%
  • 10.0%
  • 20.0%
    • (and, mostly wormhole signatures)
  • 1.67%
  • 4.00%
  • 6.67%


For ships, the signature strength is determined by:

  • Signature Size = (target) ship signature radius / (target) ship sensor strength.

Before the Crucible expansion, the maximum attainable Base Scan Strength for combat probes was 92.58. Hence, the any ship with a signature strength of 1.08% or below would be unscannable.
Since the Crucible extension, the minimum attainable Signature Size for ships has been 'capped' at (1/88 =) 1.14% (=approximately 105% hit, with maximum skills and equipment, before Crucible changes).
With the boost in number of probes used in the equation (from 4 to a maximum of 8) and the boost to the bonus of sisters probe launchers (from 5% to 10%), ships are now always reasonable easy to scan down.


*) if you use probes set at different scan ranges, adjust the magic number '512' in the above formula accordingly. So, for a combat probe (at max range), it would be '128' and for a core probe at max range '64'. However signal strength reported by core probes is influenced too much by their proximity to the actual signature to be reliable enough to make any predictions.