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PI TAX Change - Taxing the New and Poor, Thanks CCP

Author
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-02-03 11:03:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
mechtech wrote:
Profit per hour w/ PI will reach the exact same equilibrium as before. You're wrong.

All the change did was increase cost of the end goods.


In an informed economy, yes. In an Eve economy where the majority of people think that the resources they get for sale are free, no.

You've obviously never conducted a real market analysis of any kind of production. If you had you'd realize there are many many stupid people out there. I know people who compete themselves to bankruptcy in this game purely because they believe the resources they collect themselves are "FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"

Granted, I haven't analyzed PI production costs/profits here. But then I live in w-space and only use PI to offset the costs of my POS fuel because frankly, that clickfest bores the hell outta me.

Don't ban me, bro!

Citizen Smif
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-02-03 11:08:01 UTC
The expropriation of the high sec masses has begun.. These bourgeois oppressors will meet their untimely end. I have no doubt of that, comrade.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#43 - 2012-02-03 11:18:42 UTC
Oh dear, another fail industrybear whine thread

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-02-03 11:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

To run level 3 PI takes only a few hours of skill training. the cost of the command center+level 3 upgrade + the facilities needed to set up the planet is a large investment for a new player. Only to find out that they can not afford to export the commodities made on the planet until they have grinded even more isk.

it's quite a bad logic

let's take a look to dramiel. This needs like 1-2 days of training (two racial frigates to level 3-4). And has price like 80 mils? You want to say: 1-2 days newbee should be able to buy it anyway?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#45 - 2012-02-03 17:37:27 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:
The original design for PI turned on comparative advantage. Strictly speaking all null sec worlds are better than their high sec counterparts (the high sec nerf). Some P0 items are almost unavailable in high sec. It therefor made sense for null to specialize in rare items and for empire to specialize in common items and processing into P2-P4. (For example the cost of electrolytes routinely runs half the finished sale price of coolant, this means that the null player can make best use of his resources by pulling electros and the high sec player can best use their PI PG/CPU pulling more plentiful water and processing the two into coolant).

CCP then gave null a 100% tax break (or whatever the null corp sets its tax rate to). This give the null player to advantages. First null can specialize planets as they do not need to extract and build in the same place so to minimize import/export taxes. Secondly Null has a flat advantage on processed goods equal to the taxes they are not paying. This means that the price of PI goods can decline without harming the profit margin of the null player.

Since Null has a tax subsidy a price decline does not put downward pressure on the price of "rare" P1s (like chiral structures). These maintain their price even as the price of P2-P4 declines. This puts a double squeeze on high sec producers. Price declines from the fictitious CCP price increase the real tax rate payed in high sec. At the same time declining prices do not mean a decline in import prices, putting pressure on margins.

The end result of this is that it no longer makes sense for high sec players to processes into p2-p4. This cuts a significant portion of the profits out of a high sec operation. In addition, due to the lack of rare mats in high sec this leaves high sec producers making P1 that sells for far less than 500isk/unit, further diminishing the profitability of PI.

Further complicating matters, CCP just rebalanced POS fuels killing the demand for a number of items (Robotics should be at 50K isk/unit in Jita by the end of next week). This is not a problem for subsidized players but is a major issue for high sec PI.

While you can still make isk doing PI in high sec, the isk/hour does not justify the time spent messing with it.

In effect CCP did a stealth removal of a feature people were enjoying from high sec. High sec players are on the verge of riot from the constant CCP removal of features in order to subsidize low/null play.


So, to take all of your well presented facts and observations and put them in perspective, the new PI system:

1: Has put an emphasis on harvesting basic commodities in High Sec, and for those it is still profitable.

2: Does little to affect the new player trying basic PI, but has put pressure on more experienced high sec players with extensive and/or higher tier PI networks to consider moving their operations to low sec to remain profitable (possibly more profitable than before the changes).

3: The price of POS fuel is coming down, as predicted.

4: Has solidified the PI system into

High sec: Modest profit on basic materials, good for new players and loners as a very basic income stream.

Low sec: Higher yeilds for the more daring loner, much better profit for those organized enough to put up a POCO and wishing to set up more complicated PI networks.

Null sec: Best profits, easiest to set up complicated chains IF... you can hang onto your space and keep it clear enough to operate efficiently.


I'm sorry that I'm using a catch phrase here, but frankly... WORKING AS INTENDED.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ocih
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
#46 - 2012-02-03 17:44:34 UTC
What are you expecting, this is EVE.

Everyone here knows mining is a poor mans profession, boring long and unproductive so its pretty accurate to conclude if a guy is in a Hulk in a belt it's because he really can't afford to do much else. So should we ignore him, let him get back on his feet? Hell no, kick him while he is down. Show him the door. CCP is following our lead. Crush anything and everything that shows any sign of weakness. Its the way to "win EVE".
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-02-06 17:48:37 UTC
Taxes from my PI go to my corp, where they are used to fund my kamikaze blackbirds so vOv

 Though All Men Do Despise Us

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#48 - 2012-02-06 18:04:12 UTC
/me looks at his age. looks at his asset list.

6 months to get 10 million? I must be doing it wrong. Granted, I generally have less than 100 mil in my wallet, but that's because I reinvest everything.

Hell, the Sisters of Eve arc gets you around 20 mill. Isk isn't hard to get. Well, not if you don't immediately stick it all in ships which you then pvp with. You need capital, if you're going to do more than run missions.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#49 - 2012-02-06 18:06:14 UTC
Solution: Force PI to require more skillpoint investment?

This thread is entirely too stupid.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#50 - 2012-02-06 18:17:04 UTC
It was a fix only in favor of the CSM members.

Yes, working as intended, CCPs mistake, it seems the ones laid off in autumn were also the only ones with clues in game-design.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-02-06 18:48:52 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Yes, working as intended, CCPs mistake, it seems the ones laid off in autumn were also the only ones with clues in game-design.

lol wut
Tithi
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-02-06 18:55:00 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
mechtech wrote:
Profit per hour w/ PI will reach the exact same equilibrium as before. You're wrong.

All the change did was increase cost of the end goods.


I'm sorry but you are wrong.

PI used to be something a new player could start from day one. Now the level of taxes prevents any new players from doing PI until they have established a foot hold and have several million isk to throw around.

For veteran players the only impact was some mild inflation. As you say no real affect other than an increase in the cost of end goods.So it really achieved nothing except putting one more aspect of the game out of reach for new players.


And how, pray tell, have you deduced that the initial start up fee for a new player to begin PI has risen several million ISK as the result of the new tax percentage? It's certainly not the amount of taxes they pay for their first load of PI materials exported.


To run level 3 PI takes only a few hours of skill training. the cost of the command center+level 3 upgrade + the facilities needed to set up the planet is a large investment for a new player. Only to find out that they can not afford to export the commodities made on the planet until they have grinded even more isk.

I do most of my PI in high sec. 4 characters with level 4 skills on all of them. I spend upwards of 5 mil per character on import/export taxes to cycle the 5 planets they run which is usually once a week. (not counting daily extractor resets which cost nothing) the costs are high enough that if I did not have a POS to fuel I would not be doing PI at all. If the costs were this high when I started PI I would not have bothered. The profits are about the same as they were before. But the investment is much higher.

For a new player 1 million dollars is a lot of money. Very few will spend the first few millions they make on setting up PI if the initial investment is so much higher than the returns. I was playing EVE for 6 months before I ever reached 10 mil isk on my first account.


The taxes are 1/2ed in low sec. Try there.

You are probably going to say, but aren't all the customs offices there owned by players who might have set the taxes to 100% for non-blues?

No. They aren't.
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