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[Proposal] Make some ships similar...!
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Shingorash
Stellar Defense Services
#1 - 2011-09-13 12:32:01 UTC
Basic example...

Caldari / Amarr Command Ships - Shield / Armor Resist Bonus
Minmatar / Gallente Command Ships - Shield / Armor Boost Bonus

In PVP who really uses boost bonus' as everything is passive tanked basically.

Perhaps CCP should either balance out the bonus' so nobody is left out in the dark.

For PVE this wouldn't change much, the resist bonus would work just as well as a boost bonus.


Another basic example...

Maelstrom / Hyperion - Rep bonus.
Abaddon / Rokh - Resist bonus.


This persists throughout T1 and T2 ships and is somewhat pointless.


This is mainly a discussion thread more than a proposal, I was just wondering if anyone else though this was a little stupid?


I honestly think boost bonus' should just be removed and replaced with resist bonus' (with the exception of T3's as you can choose which you want to use).


It is such a simple change and would not change that much for the most part. It would open up a raft of ships though that would be more useful in both PVE and PVP scenarios...


There is also a little disparity between some ships in the T1 section, particually BC's.

Gallente - 2x Ships with Rep Bonus
Minmatar - 1x Rep Bonus & 1x No Bonus At All (which is fine as the Hurricane can be used as Armor or Shield so the gun bonus' make sense).
Caldari - 2x Resist Bonus
Amarr - 1x Resist and 1x Gun Bonus (Like the Cane).


The Cyclone for example would be a ship to rival the Cane in PVP if it had a resist bonus rather than a boost bonus.
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-09-13 13:44:41 UTC
I've noticed it, but each ship fits into a role.

In PvP, "gank" is usually preferred over "tank". This is why some ships (the Hurricane being one of those) are preferred over others.

Bear in mind that Gallente ships are designed (for the most part) to use drones primarily. As they use drones, they have less need for guns, and more need for a stronger tank to survive while the drones do the work. Caldari ships rely on technological advances, so resists make more sense - especially since they use missiles and ECM. Minnie ships have some tank, but for many of their ships, speed is one of their tanking skills. As for Amarr, they are old school, and rely more on brute force for their purposes.

I do agree that I'd like to see some variation within racial ships, but I think the tweaking needs to be on the values the ships get, not so much the type of bonuses they get.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-09-13 14:32:48 UTC
what you are considering an issue isnt really an issue. its designed to be differnt for each race and each ship.
Shingorash
Stellar Defense Services
#4 - 2011-09-13 14:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Shingorash
It depends how you look at it.

Look at Fleet's at the moment, only specific ships are being used which somewhat alienates pilots who have trained for something not considered the "norm".

What I am proposing should help to level the playing field a little bit, get people using other ships more often.

The boost bonus is only good for PVE in reality because there is pretty much no such thing as solo PVP anymore. A resists bonus however can be applied in both scenarios.

Why don't people use Hyperion's in Armor PVP, basically the Abaddon's resist bonus and range are way better than the Hyperions.

IMHO boost bonus' are something that isn't needed in the game. It is a pointless attribute, a resist bonus fulfills the same niche whilst still being applied to both PVP and PVE.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2011-09-13 21:49:58 UTC
Honestly, I'd rather see an armor HP bonus than a resist bonus.

Not only would it give such ships a distinct "flavor" that sets them apart but, as an added bonus, it might increase the performance of "certain" ships (i.e. Gallente blasterboats) as they wouldn't NEED to pack on plates (thus increasing their speed and agility).

Still... not ALL ships with a boost bonus should be changed. Triple-rep Myrms and Active-tanked Maelstorms are quite good at what they do, which is solo-ish combat. And they CAN be buffer tanked quite well already despite their bonuses.

How did you Veterans start?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#6 - 2011-09-13 21:54:19 UTC
Shingorash wrote:
Basic example...

Caldari / Amarr Command Ships - Shield / Armor Resist Bonus
Minmatar / Gallente Command Ships - Shield / Armor Boost Bonus

In PVP who really uses boost bonus' as everything is passive tanked basically.



Quoting someone who has never flown in a fleet with logistics ships, to name only the most obvious use of this warfare link.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
David Xavier
The Capsuleers of Unconscious Thought
#7 - 2011-09-14 08:12:36 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Shingorash wrote:
Basic example...

Caldari / Amarr Command Ships - Shield / Armor Resist Bonus
Minmatar / Gallente Command Ships - Shield / Armor Boost Bonus

In PVP who really uses boost bonus' as everything is passive tanked basically.



Quoting someone who has never flown in a fleet with logistics ships, to name only the most obvious use of this warfare link.


You should elaborate your opinion.

Resist bonus can mean you survive the alpha strike which would have destroyed a ship which gets a bonus to armor repair/shield boost. Not to mention the first is always active, while for the latter you need juice in your capacitor.

I don't suffer from insanity.. I enjoy it !
Shingorash
Stellar Defense Services
#8 - 2011-09-14 08:23:14 UTC
David Xavier wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Shingorash wrote:
Basic example...

Caldari / Amarr Command Ships - Shield / Armor Resist Bonus
Minmatar / Gallente Command Ships - Shield / Armor Boost Bonus

In PVP who really uses boost bonus' as everything is passive tanked basically.



Quoting someone who has never flown in a fleet with logistics ships, to name only the most obvious use of this warfare link.


You should elaborate your opinion.

Resist bonus can mean you survive the alpha strike which would have destroyed a ship which gets a bonus to armor repair/shield boost. Not to mention the first is always active, while for the latter you need juice in your capacitor.


Didnt think about it in that way but of course you are correct.

The Hyperion is a favorite ship of mine (I cant actually fly one on this character) but would love to PVP in one.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-09-14 11:49:38 UTC
Arguments about mechanics aside for a moment, the last thing Eve needs is LESS diversity. We already have enough problems with FOTM fits.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Shingorash
Stellar Defense Services
#10 - 2011-09-14 11:58:56 UTC
This would potentially solve that.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-09-14 13:31:02 UTC
Shingorash wrote:
It depends how you look at it.

Look at Fleet's at the moment, only specific ships are being used which somewhat alienates pilots who have trained for something not considered the "norm".


why? Role players do this deliberately.
Quote:


What I am proposing should help to level the playing field a little bit, get people using other ships more often.

why? It would be boring if the choice of ship was basically reduced to random or aesthetic reasons alone
Quote:

The boost bonus is only good for PVE in reality because there is pretty much no such thing as solo PVP anymore. A resists bonus however can be applied in both scenarios.


I think you may be thinking this game must be balanced like chess. But in truth balanced games take all the character and flavor out of it, and make it just a game of optimizers and tacticians.
[quote]
Shingorash
Stellar Defense Services
#12 - 2011-09-14 13:43:33 UTC
Role players can still role play, this isn't about role playing its about making more ships accessible for both PVE and PVP.

Ship choice is a personal thing, I personally hate flying speed tanked ships because I find it boring which rules me out of some fleets, I am not saying we should make the Vaga slower, nor am I saying Intercepters are overpowered for their cost. All I am suggesting is a fairly simple change that wont change anything to do with PVE really but will open up more ships for PVP and make them more viable.

Im not saying it needs to be balanced like chess. Otherwise I would be suggesting the Cane got an Armor resists bonus, or the capacitor bonus's on Amarr ships should be replaced with something else.

I have no problem with different ships having different bonus', the point in the boost bonus really is only useful for PVE.

I could suggest more ships are added to balance this out a bit but that isnt the solution, a minor change like this as I said would hardly change anything, it would just make some other options viable ones.

At that point new tactics can be made up. Fleets of Myrms with just Drone DPS. Hyperions roaming around blasting everything to crap at a range comparible with Abaddon's whilst still having a decent tank etc.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#13 - 2011-09-19 00:37:42 UTC
Yeah, active tanking bonus as it stands is useless most of the time, even for PvE where most of it these days is done in groups...

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#14 - 2011-09-19 02:33:23 UTC
Confirming no one has ever whipped out an XL SB maelstrom, a triple rep hype or myrm and actually won. Roll Flavor is good, leave the bonuses as they are. That said some of the ships do need some reworking. The cyclone/slep both need 2x additional midslots at the expense of one low and one high slot. The myrm needs to lose a mid for another low, ditto for the hype. The brutix needs -1x mid, -1 high and +2 lows to work as intended. Actually, all the tier 1 BC's and their CS counterparts just need more slots.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Shingorash
Stellar Defense Services
#15 - 2011-09-19 08:19:56 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Confirming no one has ever whipped out an XL SB maelstrom, a triple rep hype or myrm and actually won. Roll Flavor is good, leave the bonuses as they are. That said some of the ships do need some reworking. The cyclone/slep both need 2x additional midslots at the expense of one low and one high slot. The myrm needs to lose a mid for another low, ditto for the hype. The brutix needs -1x mid, -1 high and +2 lows to work as intended. Actually, all the tier 1 BC's and their CS counterparts just need more slots.


You could still do triple rep with resists, it would work just as well. For PVP though in fleets its pretty useless. The only saving grace is that you can fit one with buffer and it will work okay, it will be slow as hell though...