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The Bellwether Mechanic - Predicting CCP's Future Direction
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2012-02-05 07:19:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Going by that way of thinking, then someone like me who isn't in a player corp belonging to a large null sec alliance doesn't belong in Eve.
That depends — do you fold the instant someone wardecs you?

Quote:
That statement by foxnod demonstrates the type of mentality that will only drive more players from this game, plain and simple.
No. foxnod's comment demonstrates a specific point that needs to be taught to new players to make them understand their choices, viz. that a player corp is a pay-for luxury, not a right, and that before setting one up, players should carefully consider whether it'll be worth their investment.

Quote:
There is no reason for an established 20 man PvP corp to WarDec a newly formed 2 man Industrial corp based in high sec other than to disrupt gameplay their industrial efforts
…which, as it happens, is an entirely legitimate reason to do so due to how the economy of the game works. If they don't want to deal with the competition, they have the ability to choose not to, but doing so takes them out of the race by imposing higher taxes and slower/more crowded production chains. Changing that would be rather silly: it doesn't make much sense if they were able to compete without subjecting themselves to the competition, now does it?


What I see here is you spouting a bunch of words that actually mean nothing other than 'Hey, look at me'.

foxnod's statement may have been true once upon a long long time ago, back when everyone thought it was fun and acceptable to can bait noobs with 'Free Items' in a yellow can, all in the guise of 'teaching them about Eve' bullcrap.

You keep voicing your opinion like you wrote the book on how Eve is supposed to be played. Creating a player owned corporation is not some form of pay-for-luxury. Gawd, where do you come up with this stuff? In the past year or so, CCP has gone to great lengths to encourage players to form player owned corporations and will probably continue to do so. And if that means making things a little bit safer for small independent corps, then so be it.

Please don't edit my statements when you quote them. Obviously you didn't even read it. A 20 member PvP corp going after a 2 member Industrial corp is not due to competition, that's a clear case of griefing and there's a lot of that going on in-game so don't even try to say it doesn't happen.

CCP is changing this game and guess what? Actions that used to be acceptable yesterday won't be acceptable tomorrow.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2012-02-05 07:59:20 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:


QFT huh?

Going by that way of thinking, then someone like me who isn't in a player corp belonging to a large null sec alliance doesn't belong in Eve.


Wrong:

Stop drawing parallels where none exist, or if they do, then it's only in a very broad sense. NPC corp-soloist =/= a group of players in a corp. who have absolutely no knowledge of how corporations in EVE work, and that they are much more than the glorified social-club of guilds in most other MMOs.

Chief among these seems to be that they don't/refuse to understand that, once you form a corp., you are implicitly signing yourself up as being open to the ruthless PvP competition that informs this entire game.


And what do nullsec alliances have to do with this? Not that I need to justify myself to you, but rest assured, mate: I despise them and everything they really represent, just as much as you seem to, though I suspect my reasons are quite different from yours.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
If you agree with that then obviously you don't know me or my contributions to this community and probably shouldn't refer to me as DMC.


Ooooooh, did I step on your poor, embattled, little sense of amoure propre? Don't worry, DMC, I'm sure you'll live.

DeMicael Crimson wrote:
That statement by foxnod demonstrates the type of mentality that will only drive more players from this game, plain and simple.


And yet, EVE's subscriber-base has overall only grown since it went public, with the quite-proper exception of the Incarna debacle. Fancy that, eh?

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
There is no reason for an established 20 man PvP corp to WarDec a newly formed 2 man Industrial corp based in high sec other than to disrupt gameplay and grief them out of the game for the lolz. Stating that Eve is Darwinian by nature is purely a fail excuse to justify that type of activity when it pertains to high sec.


Which is why this is relatively rare, unless that two-man corp is a known alt-corp for the "main" war-target. In which case, it is then a valid military target: Asset-denial is a fundamental concept of warfare, and those alts' players still have the option of dropping corp to NPC, where the only legal way to get them in hisec is suicide-ganking, or non-direct-combat forms of "economic PvP"

E:

Oh, and you should fly that ISK 1Bn mission-T3 with your d-scanner open, and set to short-range (ca. 600mn km/4AU), and then actually use it.

Then, when you see combat-probes, you turn the range down to 300mn km/2AU, and refresh as fast as it will let you. Once you see that group of Tempests/Tornados, that's your cue to align to something.

Set d-scanner to around 50mn km, and once the baddies show on scan, that's when you warp-out (You did kill those annoying little pointies/webbers in the mission-space first, didn't you?)...

If you want to be extra-cautious--not a bad idea, imho--then align and warp as soon as you see probes.

That "victimisation" you go on about could have easily been avoided if you'd been paying attention, and using the tools the game gives everyone equally to protect yourself.


Too much random BS to go thru everything. Just because I'm in a NPC corp doesn't mean I don't have knowledge about how a player owned corp works. You may refer to forming a new player corp as 'signing up for ruthless PvP competition'. I view it as 'signing up for ruthless PvP griefing'.

Ohhh, how quaint, you used some French words, now aren't you special. Amour propre is an acute awareness of, and regard for, oneself in relation to others. Obviously I don't know what contributions you've done for this community other than what's written in your signature. I will admit that it does say quite a bit about what type of community member you are.

As for the assassination, obviously you missed the part about why it was done. And yes, I know how to safeguard myself and thanks to that little bit of grief play, I am now very jaded and suspect everyone in this game of being griefers looking to disrupt everyone's gameplay. By the way, it was an exploration fit up, not a mission fit up. Guess you missed that too when you looked up the Killmail.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#63 - 2012-02-05 08:14:02 UTC
Wardecs have been unofficially removed due to fact that all methods used to dodge them have been ruled legal for play. Been that way for a good little while

Has EVE died yet?
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-02-05 08:16:46 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
As for the assassination, obviously you missed the part about why it was done. And yes, I know how to safeguard myself and thanks to that little bit of grief play, I am now very jaded and suspect everyone in this game of being griefers looking to disrupt everyone's gameplay. By the way, it was an exploration fit up, not a mission fit up. Guess you missed that too when you looked up the Killmail.

The whole game is built upon the concept of disrupting the other guy's gameplay ... whether that be mining, marketeering, or sov control (to name a few.) But, you, strangely, refer to all of that as griefing. Any interruption to whatever it is you're doing and "Oh no! I'm being griefed!"

There is very little in this game that can be considered actual griefing ... especially everything that you describe having been done to you.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2012-02-05 08:17:55 UTC
Patient 2428190 wrote:
Has EVE died yet?
A little bit. Yes. I would have contracted some group to take out the Uni POS if there were a working wardec system in place. :)
Umega
Solis Mensa
#66 - 2012-02-05 08:31:03 UTC
It is within the game mechanics to shoot ppl in highsec.. the reason behind the attempt isn't important. It is merely.. an aspect and part of this game. It is no more complicated than that. Trying to make it more complicated than that is.. simply trying to find a reason to be a lil whinny ***** about what happened and make excuses that it wasn't your fault.

There would be far more ppl legitamently griefed if they removed the option to engage in consent/nonconsent PvP combat in highsec. Cutting away a huge aspect, and long standing principle behind this very game's existence would be far more of a grief.. than 'griefing' someone in game for simply playing by the rules and doing what is allowed in the game.

If you can not tolerate what this game is.. leave.

Signed up for a game where your ship doesn't respawn on death.. shoulda clued some of you in on something.

I'm not going to ask people to change who they are and what they like.. but I'm not going to let them change the very foundation of this game into a theme park MMO for their PvE risk free enjoyment to do repeatative crap, because I like and enjoy EVE's core foundation the way it is, needs some tweaks.. but not to the extreme of making highsec an immunity zone. Not at all. It'll cause far, far, far more problems than help. And I think most of you on the side of immunity highsec have no clue the side effects you'll bring upon this game.

But I also know your side has shown a complete lack of care for anyone and everything other than yourselves. Obvious and evident by how precious you hold your ships and cuddle them.. all your possessions are so much more precious than anyone elses. If anything at all threatens your things.. you don't defend them, you attack the very principle of this game. As well as try to attack nullsec for being better than what you have.. as some sort of means to justify your stance as a lil whinny ***** and rightful to be such when threat knocks at your door. I dare say most of you don't give a damn about the health of the game.. it is only about You.

Go find a different game that has your style in place and quit trying to ruin this one.

Precious.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#67 - 2012-02-05 08:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Patient 2428190
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Patient 2428190 wrote:
Has EVE died yet?
A little bit. Yes. I would have contracted some group to take out the Uni POS if there were a working wardec system in place. :)


Unless they start alliance hopping, you could still do that.

Edit: I'm not entirely sure why you think the wardec cost would be the roadblock, and not the 1500 man alliance that could probably rally a 100+ man fleet if they really wanted to save their tower.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2012-02-05 08:56:45 UTC
Excellent article.

Ban NPC Corps
Make individuals wardecable.
Remove decshield
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-02-05 09:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Patient 2428190 wrote:
Unless they start alliance hopping, you could still do that.
Not while they have an out, no. And not while there's a 1B ISK fee to wardec them per week. (This thread isn't about the Uni though. Was just throwing out an example, that while the wardec system is currently broke, everyone's POSes are pretty much safe, if the folks owning them are of a mind to keep them.)

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Ban NPC Corps.
Make individuals wardecable.
Remove decshield.
No. No. Yes.
Tore Vest
#70 - 2012-02-05 09:11:23 UTC
I like griefers tears P

No troll.
Humidor Cigarillo
#71 - 2012-02-05 09:19:45 UTC
Humidor Cigarillo wrote:
You make the bold claim that the wardec system is analogous to the proverbial canary in the coal mine, but you provide zero evidence to support this supposition. When in the past have wardec mechanics indicated a broader change in the game? That is something you should have spent some time trying to come up with. Instead, you continued on with ever-bolder conjecture insisting that this faux-lynch-pin might yet be pulled. To top it all off you seem to have mis-read the very quotes you selected as two of the three indicate not that CCP is softening the wardec system, but that they might be hardening it, creating even more wardec opportunities.

To put it politely, this is irrational fear-mongering. You should spend more time thinking and less time typing if you want people to take your blog seriously. That article read like something off EN24.


In case you missed this.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2012-02-05 09:27:56 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

The whole game is built upon the concept of disrupting the other guy's gameplay ... whether that be mining, marketeering, or sov control (to name a few.) But, you, strangely, refer to all of that as griefing. Any interruption to whatever it is you're doing and "Oh no! I'm being griefed!"

There is very little in this game that can be considered actual griefing ... especially everything that you describe having been done to you.

Gawd, you're quite the fail troll aren't you? There's a big difference between what I posted and what you're saying. Nowhere did I say those activity's were griefing. Figures you'd resort to twisting things around and try to portray me like that.

Obviously you have no clue as to what exactly happened or any of the actions that resulted from it being done.

Doesn't much matter what you believe. The player made his intentions quite clear in various forms of correspondence. Reports were submitted, forum ban enacted, harassment petition filed, player warned and now very closely watched which was stated in personal message to me from CCP.

By the way, don't bother trying to sell me your viewpoint on how this game is meant to be played or what actions CCP will take..

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, checked out your sad little blog and found it to be nothing more than a case of Chicken Little running around crying 'The sky is falling, the sky is falling'.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-02-05 09:32:54 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:


Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Ban NPC Corps.
Make individuals wardecable.
Remove decshield.
No. No. Yes.

No point in doing #3 if you're going to ignore steps #1 and #2. Just disincentivising working as a team in an MMO even more.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#74 - 2012-02-05 10:05:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
DeMichael Crimson wrote:


[Typical carebear entitlement-mentality/victim-badge waving]


In other words, someone's saying something you don't want to hear, so you'll just plug your ears and yell. Throwing your toys out of the pram may make you feel better, but it really isn't going to change anything.

Yeah, I saw that it was explo-fit. Pretty fail-fit, too:

Why would you need the cloaking sub in hisec when the Proj-scoping array gives almost 20% more DPS, 33% more range, same slot-layout, and Mollin has a station where you can swap out subs if needed? Or were you going to put on a cloaking device to actually brave the ultra-griefy hive of scum and villainy known as (insert scary wolf-howl here)...low sec?

And it's not griefing. Read the EULA. It's 100% legitimate game-play. You get the potential for that in exchange for being able to dodge the 11% NPC corp-tax, put up POS', and control more directly who you play with--sounds a fair exchange to me in a game built entirely around non-consensual PvP competition.

And, It can happen to anyone--I've beaked on the forums quite a bit, yet no-one's ever tried to "assassinate" me, nor yet has this ever happened to anyone else I know. Sounds like you pissed off the wrong person, no? Welcome to EVE.

If you're letting the loss of one ship almost 5 months ago still colour your thinking....man, not a lot I can say to help you there except that Internet spaceships really aren't that serious a business, maing...Ugh

Your definition of amour propre isn't quite right, either, at least, it's a an oversimplification. Your response tells me it was chosen accurately, however.

So sorry about your important Internet space-pixels there, DMC.

I can haz Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster, pls?

Ni.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#75 - 2012-02-05 10:11:03 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
[Typical carebear victim-badge waving]


In other words, someone's saying something you don't want to hear, so you'll just plug your ears and yell. Throwing your toys out of the pram may make you feel better, but it really isn't going to change anything.

Yeah, I saw that it was explo-fit. Pretty fail-fit, too:

Why would you need the cloaking sub in hisec when the Proj-scoping array gives almost 20% more DPS, 33% more range, same slot-layout, and Mollin has a station where you can swap out subs if needed? Or were you going to put on a cloaking device to actually brave the ultra-griefy hive of scum and villainy known as (insert scary wolf-howl here)...low sec?

And it's not griefing. Read the EULA. It's 100% legitimate game-play. You get the potential for that in exchange for being able to dodge the 11% NPC corp-tax, put up POS', and control more directly who you play with--sounds a fair exchange to me in a game built entirely around non-consensual PvP competition.

And, It can happen to anyone--I've beaked on the forums quite a bit, yet no-one's ever tried to "assassinate" me, nor yet has this ever happened to anyone else I know. Sounds like you pissed off the wrong person, no? Welcome to EVE.

If you're letting the loss of one ship almost 5 months ago still colour your thinking....man, not a lot I can say to help you there except that Internet spaceships really aren't that serious a business, maing...Ugh

Your definition of amour propre isn't quite right, either, at least, it's a an oversimplification. Your responses tell me I was right to choose it.

I can haz Pith B-Type large Shield-Booster, pls., DMC? <3ulots kthxbai Bear

Ni.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#76 - 2012-02-05 10:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
Jesus mothereffing Christ will you idiots sort your ******* forums, ever?

For ****'s sake...Roll

Ni.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#77 - 2012-02-05 10:16:30 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:


Too much random BS to go thru everything. Just because I'm in a NPC corp doesn't mean I don't have knowledge about how a player owned corp works. You may refer to forming a new player corp as 'signing up for ruthless PvP competition'. I view it as 'signing up for ruthless PvP griefing'.

Ohhh, how quaint, you used some French words, now aren't you special. Amour propre is an acute awareness of, and regard for, oneself in relation to others. Obviously I don't know what contributions you've done for this community other than what's written in your signature. I will admit that it does say quite a bit about what type of community member you are.

As for the assassination, obviously you missed the part about why it was done. And yes, I know how to safeguard myself and thanks to that little bit of grief play, I am now very jaded and suspect everyone in this game of being griefers looking to disrupt everyone's gameplay. By the way, it was an exploration fit up, not a mission fit up. Guess you missed that too when you looked up the Killmail.


In other words, someone's saying something you don't want to hear, so you'll just plug your ears and yell. Throwing your toys out of the pram may make you feel better, but it really isn't going to change anything.

Yeah, I saw that it was explo-fit. Pretty fail-fit, too:

Why would you need the cloaking sub in hisec when the Proj-scoping array gives almost 20% more DPS, 33% more range, same slot-layout, and Mollin has a station where you can swap out subs if needed? Or were you going to put on a cloaking device to actually brave the ultra-griefy hive of scum and villainy known as (insert scary wolf-howl here)...low sec?

And it's not griefing. Read the EULA. It's 100% legitimate game-play. You get the potential for that in exchange for being able to dodge the 11% NPC corp-tax, put up POS', and control more directly who you play with--sounds a fair exchange to me in a game built entirely around non-consensual PvP competition.

And, It can happen to anyone--I've beaked on the forums quite a bit, yet no-one's ever tried to "assassinate" me, nor yet has this ever happened to anyone else I know. Sounds like you pissed off the wrong person, no? Welcome to EVE.

If you're letting the loss of one ship almost 5 months ago still colour your thinking....man, not a lot I can say to help you there except that Internet spaceships really aren't that serious a business, maing...Ugh

Your ]definition of amour propre isn't quite right, either, at least, it's a an oversimplification. Your responses, however, tell me I was right to use it. As it's both expressly defined, and in terms of what that implies.

Terribly sorry about your Internet space-pixels, there, DMC. I know how incredibly important they are in the grand scheme of things...

I can haz Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster?

Ni.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-02-05 10:17:09 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
(Typical carebear entitlement-mentality/victim-badge waving)


In other words, someone's saying something you don't want to hear, so you'll just plug your ears and yell. Throwing your toys out of the pram may make you feel better, but it really isn't going to change anything.

Yeah, I saw that it was explo-fit. Pretty fail-fit, too:

Why would you need the cloaking sub in hisec when the Proj-scoping array gives almost 20% more DPS, 33% more range, same slot-layout, and Mollin has a station where you can swap out subs if needed? Or were you going to put on a cloaking device to actually brave the ultra-griefy hive of scum and villainy known as (insert scary wolf-howl here)...low sec?

And it's not griefing. Read the EULA. It's 100% legitimate game-play. You get the potential for that in exchange for being able to dodge the 11% NPC corp-tax, put up POS', and control more directly who you play with--sounds a fair exchange to me in a game built entirely around non-consensual PvP competition.

And, It can happen to anyone--I've beaked on the forums quite a bit, yet no-one's ever tried to "assassinate" me, nor yet has this ever happened to anyone else I know. Sounds like you pissed off the wrong person, no? Welcome to EVE.

If you're letting the loss of one ship almost 5 months ago still colour your thinking....man, not a lot I can say to help you there except that Internet spaceships really aren't that serious a business, maing...

Your definition of amour propre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amour_propre) isn't quite right, either, at least, it's a an oversimplification. Your response tells me it was chosen accurately, however.

So sorry about your important Internet space-pixels there, DMC.

I can haz Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster, pls?

Here's your problem post, Lyrr. Issue was the link to the Amour_propre article on Wikipedia.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-02-05 10:19:46 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
-I've beaked on the forums quite a bit, yet no-one's ever tried to "assassinate" me, nor yet has this ever happened to anyone else I know. Sounds like you pissed off the wrong person, no? Welcome to EVE.

I beak-off all the time. No one has yet tried to assassinate me. *sigh*
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#80 - 2012-02-05 10:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
[snipping my quoted wall-of-text]
Here's your problem post, Lyrr. Issue was the link to the Amour_propre article on Wikipedia.


Why thank you :)

(Now why can't I delete the extra posts?)

Ni.