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The Bellwether Mechanic - Predicting CCP's Future Direction

Author
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-02-04 19:14:26 UTC
tl;dr - The War Declaration System is a perfect indicator of CCP's design and development philosophy.

The Bellwether Mechanic - Predicting CCP's Future Direction
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#2 - 2012-02-04 19:37:17 UTC
Summer Is Coming

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-02-04 20:16:08 UTC
First of all, your write up is conjecture at most, assumptions based on a couple of selected statements. Not to mention I find it biased and judgmental at best, written with a prejudiced viewpoint which is adverse to change.

Secondly, so fracking what.

If CCP does make high security safer for the small independent corps, I say great, it's about time.

For too long this game has allowed newly formed small corps to be subjected to grief WarDec by large corps whose sole intention is to pad their Killmails with easy kills, nothing more. They don't do it because of competition from a new small corp that has intruded on their territory. They do it simply for the enjoyment in the fact that they drove potential new players away from this game. Newly formed small Industrial corps get WarDec'd out of existence very quickly due to outdated broken game mechanics which invariably leads to rage quits, thus reducing subscriptions which inevitable hurts CCP in the long run.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-02-04 20:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Newly formed small Industrial corps get WarDec'd out of existence very quickly due to outdated broken game mechanics which invariably leads to rage quits, thus reducing subscriptions which inevitable hurts CCP in the long run.

Complete BS. My alt hauled in highsec for a couple months, part of his own one-person corporation. He did a lot of hauling. Sixty to one hundred jumps per day, usually. Along all the major trade routes. In a freighter, loaded up with billions in cargo. He was hardly unnoticeable and certainly a target.

He never got a sniff of a wardec. This whole "people grief small industrial corps" argument is complete fallacy.
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-02-04 20:33:18 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
First of all, your write up is conjecture at most, assumptions based on a couple of selected statements. Not to mention I find it biased and judgmental at best, written with a prejudiced viewpoint which is adverse to change.

Secondly, so fracking what.

If CCP does make high security safer for the small independent corps, I say great, it's about time.

For too long this game has allowed newly formed small corps to be subjected to grief WarDec by large corps whose sole intention is to pad their Killmails with easy kills, nothing more. They don't do it because of competition from a new small corp that has intruded on their territory. They do it simply for the enjoyment in the fact that they drove potential new players away from this game. Newly formed small Industrial corps get WarDec'd out of existence very quickly due to outdated broken game mechanics which invariably leads to rage quits, thus reducing subscriptions which inevitable hurts CCP in the long run.


And to think, I used to have a hell of a lot of respect for you. When did you turn into just another "Make highsec safer EVE is dying" guy?
foxnod
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-02-04 20:39:10 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
First of all, your write up is conjecture at most, assumptions based on a couple of selected statements. Not to mention I find it biased and judgmental at best, written with a prejudiced viewpoint which is adverse to change.

Secondly, so fracking what.

If CCP does make high security safer for the small independent corps, I say great, it's about time.

For too long this game has allowed newly formed small corps to be subjected to grief WarDec by large corps whose sole intention is to pad their Killmails with easy kills, nothing more. They don't do it because of competition from a new small corp that has intruded on their territory. They do it simply for the enjoyment in the fact that they drove potential new players away from this game. Newly formed small Industrial corps get WarDec'd out of existence very quickly due to outdated broken game mechanics which invariably leads to rage quits, thus reducing subscriptions which inevitable hurts CCP in the long run.


Newly formed industrial corps get wardec'd out of existence because they don't deserve to exist. If they deserved to exist they would weather the storm just fine. Eve is darwinian by nature, so people either need to HTFU or get out.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-02-04 20:58:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Poetic Stanziel wrote:


....part of his own one-person corporation....

He never got a sniff of a wardec. This whole "people grief small industrial corps" argument is complete fallacy.



Well sweety, that is because a small 1 man freighter corp is obviously an alt hauling corp. Not to mention too small to bother with. I fail to see how this can be submitted as "evidence" of the fallacy in which you speak of. All you have there is a prime target for suicide gankers. BTW, what is the name of your alt corp again?


Oh wait, I bet it can be found in contract history. Never mind.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-02-04 21:22:45 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
First of all, your write up is conjecture at most, assumptions based on a couple of selected statements. Not to mention I find it biased and judgmental at best, written with a prejudiced viewpoint which is adverse to change.

Secondly, so fracking what.

If CCP does make high security safer for the small independent corps, I say great, it's about time.

For too long this game has allowed newly formed small corps to be subjected to grief WarDec by large corps whose sole intention is to pad their Killmails with easy kills, nothing more. They don't do it because of competition from a new small corp that has intruded on their territory. They do it simply for the enjoyment in the fact that they drove potential new players away from this game. Newly formed small Industrial corps get WarDec'd out of existence very quickly due to outdated broken game mechanics which invariably leads to rage quits, thus reducing subscriptions which inevitable hurts CCP in the long run.

I have personal experience with this...

Or I should say, a lack of experience...

I had a group of friends who played, and with whom I had an alt for a couple years. 18 people *TOPS* - they didn't smack talk in local, they weren't interested in pvp (well, two were) and they did mostly hi-sec stuff. In all that time, they got -0- wardecs. Then RL happened and they drifted away from the game. They were in a hi-sec system at the entrance to low-sec, and provided a mini-shopping center, mining, making prop mods and guns and stuff. LOTS of people knew of their existence.

I know of at least 3 and maybe 4 small (<10 players) corps that have had a total of 2 wardecs in the last year. Both fizzed out when fights weren't forthcoming.

I'm not saying the labeled "griefer dec" doesn't happen, but at least in *my* experience, it's rare.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

The Apostle
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-02-04 21:34:34 UTC
And THIS from it...

Quote:
The safer, easier, less stress-free that highsec becomes, the harder it is going to be to keep people in nullsec for extended lengths of time. These people will always return to nullsec at some point, to get their game on, but the ratio of time spent in nullsec versus highsec will start to slant heavily in the highsec direction.

So people DON'T really want death at every jump? Nullseccers will leave 0.0 because highsec is safer? That flies against everything I see and hear about how "bad and nasty" Eve really is and the cry that we should make it more so. HTFU ad nauseum.

To be perfectly honest, there's a reason why Highsec IS more populated than null, and I think you hit the primary reason on the head. CCP must know this, most Highseccers already know this, the "bittervets" refuse to believe it.

Let's face it, the "bad ebil piwate/l33ts" looking for kills in highsec using war-decs etc. are themselves using the safety of Highsec to remain safe while being selective about who can kill them. That's pretty lame when you put your mind to it.

If people REALLY want fleet/small/solo battles, andrenalin rushes and a medal-earning kb, it's easily obtained in Eve and the argument that it should happen in Highsec is just - well - unneccessary.

They HAVE choices, they CHOSE not to - because it's not safe ELSEWHERE.

Nullsec democracy is an oxymoron. Bloc voting for alliance candidates is Democracy for Morons 101. Let them perish in their self-interest.

Bring back Eve. OUR Eve.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-02-04 21:45:10 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Well sweety, that is because a small 1 man freighter corp is obviously an alt hauling corp. Not to mention too small to bother with.
Except that I hauled a lot over the course of that time, so my alt was more or less my main for that time period.

What is that magic number when people decide something is worth griefing? Numbers alone? Not the potential for catching a freighter full of cargo unaware?
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-02-04 21:45:42 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Newly formed small Industrial corps get WarDec'd out of existence very quickly due to outdated broken game mechanics which invariably leads to rage quits, thus reducing subscriptions which inevitable hurts CCP in the long run.

Complete BS. My alt hauled in highsec for a couple months, part of his own one-person corporation. He did a lot of hauling. Sixty to one hundred jumps per day, usually. Along all the major trade routes. In a freighter, loaded up with billions in cargo. He was hardly unnoticeable and certainly a target.

He never got a sniff of a wardec. This whole "people grief small industrial corps" argument is complete fallacy.

Well, I can also show a different side of that too so I call BS to your statements again. I know someone who had formed a small Industrial corp to start a business of doing research on BPO's. While in the process of anchoring a POS and other structures in high sec, his 2 man corp was WarDec'd by a 20 man corp who's only intention was to destroy his POS. They left a small secure can with a sarcastic message on the can laughing about the loss of the POS. I also know of others who have had similar situations. So now I call your statement and Blog a complete fallacy.

Feligast wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
First of all, your write up is conjecture at most, assumptions based on a couple of selected statements. Not to mention I find it biased and judgmental at best, written with a prejudiced viewpoint which is adverse to change.

Secondly, so fracking what.

If CCP does make high security safer for the small independent corps, I say great, it's about time.

For too long this game has allowed newly formed small corps to be subjected to grief WarDec by large corps whose sole intention is to pad their Killmails with easy kills, nothing more. They don't do it because of competition from a new small corp that has intruded on their territory. They do it simply for the enjoyment in the fact that they drove potential new players away from this game. Newly formed small Industrial corps get WarDec'd out of existence very quickly due to outdated broken game mechanics which invariably leads to rage quits, thus reducing subscriptions which inevitable hurts CCP in the long run.


And to think, I used to have a hell of a lot of respect for you. When did you turn into just another "Make highsec safer EVE is dying" guy?


Well, I don't really have to explain myself but my viewpoint concerning high security has always been known. The term 'High Security' is a contradiction by itself, especially in this game. My viewpoint concerning this game has been soured quite a bit due to game mechanics that allows gankers and troll griefers anonymity to continue disrupting other players gameplay.

As for respect, if my viewpoint makes you dislike me then so be it. You're not the first and definitely won't be the last. My own gameplay was disrupted due to being victimized by a paid assassination hit in 0.7 security system because someone decided to turn forum banter into grief play. The OP posted a thread about a self written Blog that's filled with conjecture and assumptions. I disagreed and stated some very well known unwritten facts about high security.

Do I say I no longer have respect for you due to your viewpoints about this game or for being a 'Goon'?

NO, I never have.

So now you say you no longer have respect for me because I view high security game mechanics differently?
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-02-04 21:47:55 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
First of all, your write up is conjecture at most, assumptions based on a couple of selected statements. Not to mention I find it biased and judgmental at best, written with a prejudiced viewpoint which is adverse to change.

Secondly, so fracking what.

If CCP does make high security safer for the small independent corps, I say great, it's about time.

For too long this game has allowed newly formed small corps to be subjected to grief WarDec by large corps whose sole intention is to pad their Killmails with easy kills, nothing more. They don't do it because of competition from a new small corp that has intruded on their territory. They do it simply for the enjoyment in the fact that they drove potential new players away from this game. Newly formed small Industrial corps get WarDec'd out of existence very quickly due to outdated broken game mechanics which invariably leads to rage quits, thus reducing subscriptions which inevitable hurts CCP in the long run.

I have personal experience with this...

Or I should say, a lack of experience...

I had a group of friends who played, and with whom I had an alt for a couple years. 18 people *TOPS* - they didn't smack talk in local, they weren't interested in pvp (well, two were) and they did mostly hi-sec stuff. In all that time, they got -0- wardecs. Then RL happened and they drifted away from the game. They were in a hi-sec system at the entrance to low-sec, and provided a mini-shopping center, mining, making prop mods and guns and stuff. LOTS of people knew of their existence.

I know of at least 3 and maybe 4 small (<10 players) corps that have had a total of 2 wardecs in the last year. Both fizzed out when fights weren't forthcoming.

I'm not saying the labeled "griefer dec" doesn't happen, but at least in *my* experience, it's rare.

I know quite a few other corps that would disagree with your limited experience in stating that it's rare.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-02-04 21:50:10 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Well, I can also show a different side of that too so I call BS to your statements again. I know someone who had formed a small Industrial corp to start a business of doing research on BPO's. While in the process of anchoring a POS and other structures in high sec, his 2 man corp was WarDec'd by a 20 man corp who's only intention was to destroy his POS. They left a small secure can with a sarcastic message on the can laughing about the loss of the POS. I also know of others who have had similar situations. So now I call your statement and Blog a complete fallacy.
And yet, the corp that Poetic belongs too has had a POS up for close to six months. Again, not a sniff of a wardec in all that time. (Although that may change in about 90 seconds since I drew added attention to it.)
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-02-04 21:50:52 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I know quite a few other corps that would disagree with your limited experience in stating that it's rare.
You should list these "quite a few other corps".
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#15 - 2012-02-04 21:54:28 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
tl;dr - The War Declaration System is a perfect indicator of CCP's design and development philosophy.

The Bellwether Mechanic - Predicting CCP's Future Direction


Interesting read. The problem with CCP is that they have never fully embraced the Sandbox concept. There's been too many times where they have intervened where they should not have done so, like buffing CONCORD after the blockade or nerfing Wardecs after the Privateer Alliance. I don't trust them to make the right choice with a new Wardec system. If they really want to make EVE a themepark type game they should just clearly say so and get on with it, Otherwise embrace EVE as it was originally conceived and marketed a Sandbox MMO built around spaceships and harsh unforgiving conflict.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#16 - 2012-02-04 21:57:32 UTC
This is more diluted than some of the things I pursue.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

The Apostle
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-02-04 22:04:52 UTC  |  Edited by: The Apostle
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
And yet, the corp that Poetic belongs too has had a POS up for close to six months. Again, not a sniff of a wardec in all that time. (Although that may change in about 90 seconds since I drew added attention to it.)

And THAT is what makes all the talk about "making Highsec safe will kill the game" absolute garbage.

MOST high-seccers never get war-decced. MOST high-seccers never do PvP in it's purest form. And Eve has got along just fine and there has been no collapse of economy ad nauseum.

Yes, there HAS been an exodus from low/null. If the reason is for "safety" then perhaps Eve is NOT what people think it is anymore.

Nullsec democracy is an oxymoron. Bloc voting for alliance candidates is Democracy for Morons 101. Let them perish in their self-interest.

Bring back Eve. OUR Eve.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-02-04 22:09:00 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
And THAT is what makes all the talk about "making Highsec safe will kill the game" absolute garbage.
Since, as you surmise, it is already pretty safe, why does it need to be made safer? If anything, it should be made a tad more dangerous. Just a tad, though.
The Apostle
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-02-04 22:11:33 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
tl;dr - The War Declaration System is a perfect indicator of CCP's design and development philosophy.

The Bellwether Mechanic - Predicting CCP's Future Direction


Interesting read. The problem with CCP is that they have never fully embraced the Sandbox concept. There's been too many times where they have intervened where they should not have done so, like buffing CONCORD after the blockade or nerfing Wardecs after the Privateer Alliance. I don't trust them to make the right choice with a new Wardec system. If they really want to make EVE a themepark type game they should just clearly say so and get on with it, Otherwise embrace EVE as it was originally conceived and marketed a Sandbox MMO built around spaceships and harsh unforgiving conflict.

And if Eve truly is a sandbox, why do "l33ts" chose to keep the sandpit boundary so small?

Why IS it neccessary to bash small, non fighting corps senseless?

Why aren't you out killing **** in 0.0 where you can get a fight a minute if you know where to look?

Seriously, "l33ts" claim the sandbox is sacrosanct while they keep their range so small it's not much more than a sandcastle.

Nullsec democracy is an oxymoron. Bloc voting for alliance candidates is Democracy for Morons 101. Let them perish in their self-interest.

Bring back Eve. OUR Eve.

The Apostle
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-02-04 22:13:50 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
The Apostle wrote:
And THAT is what makes all the talk about "making Highsec safe will kill the game" absolute garbage.
Since, as you surmise, it is already pretty safe, why does it need to be made safer? If anything, it should be made a tad more dangerous. Just a tad, though.

No what I am saying is making it "safer" won't make any real, discernible difference to "Eve the concept" but it will make it more accessible as "Eve the game"...

Nullsec democracy is an oxymoron. Bloc voting for alliance candidates is Democracy for Morons 101. Let them perish in their self-interest.

Bring back Eve. OUR Eve.

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