These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New jita scam, Im confused on how it worked.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
GreenSeed
#41 - 2012-02-03 20:50:08 UTC
myFORUMalt alts wrote:
I guess to sum it up.

Now i know. Dont trust market orders.


you are not supposed to "trust" anything...



the HUGE mistake ppl make on this game, is to trust the market window at any given time. for example if at any given time the market shows a buy order for X item at 100k/u with a minimum volume of 200k units, and you see that as legitimate and go lose money trying to furfill it. you cant say you were scammed.

why? well... the market window clearly showed to you only one buy order, and a price history of say 10kisk/unit over the last 6 months and a traded volume of 100 units per day. the mistake is YOURS for taking the snapshot of market orders activity as a reliable source of market information.

again, the market window only shows market orders, not knowing that market orders are in no way a snapshot of the market value of the goods traded is your mistake, and ppl abusing your ignorance of that fact is not a scam.


the information is there, use it, or get used to giving money away.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#42 - 2012-02-04 03:47:59 UTC
corestwo wrote:
That said CCP has clarified contract pricing and added the II/III/faction */other corner icons to items, so maybe they'll bow to the careless in the end, and the game will get a little less fun.


See, I think that the changes to contracts are perfectly fine, because those scams were only really possible due to poor UI and graphics choices on the part of CCP. It makes sense for the UI to indicate prices legibly, and it makes sense for the graphical icons to give a good visual differentiation between, say, BPCs and BPOs (and given that there are so many different types of each individual module, between tiers as well).

I don't quite think that these sorts of UI/graphics changes are really an issue of bowing to the carebears, because those changes make sense even in a non-scam-reducing context.

Changing the Margin Trading skill, or making certain visual cues on the market window just to alert people of this "scam," is really not the same sort of thing. That would be a clear move on the part of CCP to bow to carebears, because the only real point would be to reduce the effect of a known "scam."

We agree fundamentally, but I differ with you in that regard. The contract changes were necessary and good, even if ultimately they made it harder for contract scams to occur, because they made logical sense outside of the scamming context.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#43 - 2012-02-04 03:53:16 UTC
myFORUMalt alts wrote:
I guess to sum it up.

Now i know. Dont trust market orders.


No, you don't know. The summary is: "Don't trust a very small number of obviously out-of-whack and easily-spotted market orders."

Stop being disingenuous.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#44 - 2012-02-04 03:56:25 UTC
Buruk Utama wrote:
Yes the buyer wanted 20 units at once but never had the isk to cover the buy, this is in bad faith.


Why is it in bad faith? By the time that order would have been filled (less likely because it's demanding a higher quantity to be sold to it at one time), I could have been expecting to have the money to cover it. That's the entire point of Margin Trading, after all, to give a trader the ability to not have the cash on hand to cover the order. If I must have the cash on hand, then the Margin Trading skill is useless.
Jaqa
Royale Strategic Imperative
#45 - 2012-02-04 10:27:58 UTC
Yeah, had something like this happen to me; I'm hoping they answer my petition, but I'm not holding my breath.
Kind of surprised to see scams on the market itself, as opposed to the contracts.

The Original Jaqalope Pilot of the Transportosaurus Rex 100% Free Range
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#46 - 2012-02-04 11:26:27 UTC
Jaqa wrote:
Yeah, had something like this happen to me; I'm hoping they answer my petition, but I'm not holding my breath.
Kind of surprised to see scams on the market itself, as opposed to the contracts.


What are you petitioning? That you bought a bunch of overpriced crap of your own accord, and then a buy order for that stuff no longer existed when you tried to sell to it? Doesn't sound like an exploit to me.
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-02-04 15:18:57 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Buruk Utama wrote:
Yes the buyer wanted 20 units at once but never had the isk to cover the buy, this is in bad faith.


Why is it in bad faith? By the time that order would have been filled (less likely because it's demanding a higher quantity to be sold to it at one time), I could have been expecting to have the money to cover it. That's the entire point of Margin Trading, after all, to give a trader the ability to not have the cash on hand to cover the order. If I must have the cash on hand, then the Margin Trading skill is useless.


I'm not saying gut the margin trading skill but these scams are easy to identify from a code perspective. If suddenly you have a buy order that is over 2000% above the market sell order and market buy orders with an attached min to avoid clearing out the market then it is only a scam and the change I described could kick in.

I'm also not condemning people who use the trick nor do I expect CCP to put this issue on anything but the back burner as it's not a major issue and not something deserving of a bunch of attention. Like everything in EVE, people need to be careful of that honey pot with a huge shinning spotlight lighting it up.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#48 - 2012-02-04 15:49:22 UTC
Buruk Utama wrote:
I'm not saying gut the margin trading skill but these scams are easy to identify from a code perspective. If suddenly you have a buy order that is over 2000% above the market sell order and market buy orders with an attached min to avoid clearing out the market then it is only a scam and the change I described could kick in.

I'm also not condemning people who use the trick nor do I expect CCP to put this issue on anything but the back burner as it's not a major issue and not something deserving of a bunch of attention. Like everything in EVE, people need to be careful of that honey pot with a huge shinning spotlight lighting it up.


Scammers would simply find out where the line is drawn and make sure that they set it up just outside the range where the system would kick in to stop it.
Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-02-09 02:57:37 UTC
It's called a 'scam' but in fact is not.
Below is what happened.

- YOU bought an item, which is exactly the same item YOU intended to buy, at the price YOU decided was appropriate.
- YOU tried to sell the item at the price YOU decided was appropriate.
- The market mechanic properly functioned and legitimately cancelled the buy order so that YOU don't end up selling the item at a price lower than YOUR set price.
- The item still remains in YOUR possession.

The only thing that went wrong here is that YOU misjudged the current value of the item.

Misjudging the value of an item is itselft very difficult to do because market price history data up to 1 year is instantly available in-game. Also, just make a few jumps and you can check other region's price data as well.

Nothing wrong with the market mechanic here.
myFORUMalt alts
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-02-09 03:01:13 UTC
Fat Buddah wrote:
It's called a 'scam' but in fact is not.
Below is what happened.

- YOU bought an item, which is exactly the same item YOU intended to buy, at the price YOU decided was appropriate.
- YOU tried to sell the item at the price YOU decided was appropriate.
- The market mechanic properly functioned and legitimately cancelled the buy order so that YOU don't end up selling the item at a price lower than YOUR set price.
- The item still remains in YOUR possession.

The only thing that went wrong here is that YOU misjudged the current value of the item.

Misjudging the value of an item is itselft very difficult to do because market price history data up to 1 year is instantly available in-game. Also, just make a few jumps and you can check other region's price data as well.

Nothing wrong with the market mechanic here.






Dammit, i thought this post was buried and was dying.
The part i love "The only thing that went wrong here is that YOU misjudged the current value of the item"
Your an idiot. The value of an item is projected as the price people are willing to buy it at. Which is broadcast to all the eve players by market orders. VALUE=what people are willing to pay for it. BUY ORDERS= what people are willing to pay for it.
But yes, the matter has been resolved and I got my isk back Blink

Yes, I complain about things I don't like.
Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-02-09 03:27:06 UTC
myFORUMalt alts wrote:
Fat Buddah wrote:
It's called a 'scam' but in fact is not.
stuff



Dammit, i thought this post was buried and was dying.
The part i love "The only thing that went wrong here is that YOU misjudged the current value of the item"
Your an idiot. The value of an item is projected as the price people are willing to buy it at. Which is broadcast to all the eve players by market orders. VALUE=what people are willing to pay for it. BUY ORDERS= what people are willing to pay for it.
But yes, the matter has been resolved and I got my isk back Blink


Sorry, but as far as I know you have to enter YOUR price when you are setting up any sell/buy order.

Since you just mindlessly agree to someone else's prices, by god please tell me the station and the system where you generally hang out and I will gratefully set up some buy/sell orders right there.

Thank you in advance for billions
Srioghal moDhream
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-02-09 14:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Srioghal moDhream
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Would be cool if they would allow wallets to just go negative and that toon could not set up any orders until returning to positive wallet. They would also have to make it so you can not delete or transfer a character off an account with a negative wallet.

If I could double my ISK every time this suggestion was made, I'd still not have anywhere near the amount of infinite ISK the above would give me.


And how would that work?

If it just allowed the characters wallet to go negative then yes but if you could not place any market orders or delete that character to create a new one while the character had a negative wallet how would you use that mechanic to make money? One scam per alt 3 alts per account = 3 scams max per account compared to the unlimited scamming that can be done currently.

The only way around it would be to repeatedly start new accounts, and if they made margin trading a non trial account skill as many other skills are that would get expensive very fast. either buying plex to activate each new account or spending a butt load of real money.

True most of these scams make more than enough to cover the cost of a plex, still a big chunk out of the profits, but if you could only do 3 scams per account before needing a new account. And if someone messed with you profits by under cutting your sell orders you could actually lose isk.

It would make these scams still possible but far less appealing as it would involve a lot more work and risk to pull it off.


Buddy trial + plex reward = infinite accounts for free.
WarProfit
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-02-10 21:35:24 UTC
So in conclusion for every item you put up on the market have your broke alt put up a buy order for twice the listed price and watch your items sell and the tears flow.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#54 - 2012-02-11 00:14:38 UTC
I've been an active equity and options investor/speculator for over five years. Buruk pretty much hit the nail on the head with his comments. The system in Eve needs to change, the order placer needs to get a kick to the shorts with a negative wallet. I hope they make this change and don' t tell anyone, that would be hilarious!

As for the scam side of it, while it is a rather amusing use of game mechanics, it isn't realistic at all. And yes, I did say "realistic" when referring to an internet space ship game. PEW PEW PEW
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#55 - 2012-02-11 00:25:26 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
I've been an active equity and options investor/speculator for over five years. Buruk pretty much hit the nail on the head with his comments. The system in Eve needs to change, the order placer needs to get a kick to the shorts with a negative wallet. I hope they make this change and don' t tell anyone, that would be hilarious!

As for the scam side of it, while it is a rather amusing use of game mechanics, it isn't realistic at all. And yes, I did say "realistic" when referring to an internet space ship game. PEW PEW PEW


Regardless of what some over-enthusiastic players and devs might think, EVE is NOT real, at least not this real.

Margin Trading in EVE is very simple. I place a buy order. A portion of the order's value is placed in escrow. If someone attempts to fill the order and I don't have enough to cover it, the order is cancelled and I'm out the broker's fee.

I'm not sure why there should have to be any greater downside than that.
Antigena
Opportunity Cost
#56 - 2012-03-05 00:54:48 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:

you are not supposed to "trust" anything...


So... I'm not supposed to "trust" that when I click something on the UI, that thing happens? I'm not supposed to "trust" that when I click the "quit game" button on the escape screen that the program will exit? I'm not supposed to "trust" that when i want to buy a ship and i have the isk, that i can say "buy this" and it happens? I'm not supposed to trust that if there is a buy order posted by someone who has decided they want to buy an item for a certain price, that i can go do the work to go retrieve that item, and then i can go fulfill the buy order, and that it will happen?

That's just ridiculous.

people are not understanding the difference between what you should be able to trust and what you should not.

people are not understanding the difference between what is a scam and what is an exploit.

people are not understanding the difference between "intelligence" and "intuition".

Plain and simple - this is a problem, and there are lots of viable fixes. Trouble is, it looks like the topic is far too clouded with verbal battles to allow the very viable proposals that people have made to get fair discussion.

Clearly, the margin trading concept was a nifty idea that has legitimate uses, but it has a flaw that allows it to BREAK THE GAME. and BADLY. "very" badly, in fact. - normally when such a thing is found, it is fixed. Especially when there are ways to fix it that dont break anytihng.

Cant we talk about how to fix this properly?
GreenSeed
#57 - 2012-03-05 01:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: GreenSeed
Antigena wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:

you are not supposed to "trust" anything...


So... I'm not supposed to "trust" that when I click something on the UI, that thing happens? I'm not supposed to "trust" that when I click the "quit game" button on the escape screen that the program will exit? I'm not supposed to "trust" that when i want to buy a ship and i have the isk, that i can say "buy this" and it happens? I'm not supposed to trust that if there is a buy order posted by someone who has decided they want to buy an item for a certain price, that i can go do the work to go retrieve that item, and then i can go fulfill the buy order, and that it will happen?

That's just ridiculous.

people are not understanding the difference between what you should be able to trust and what you should not.

people are not understanding the difference between what is a scam and what is an exploit.

people are not understanding the difference between "intelligence" and "intuition".

Plain and simple - this is a problem, and there are lots of viable fixes. Trouble is, it looks like the topic is far too clouded with verbal battles to allow the very viable proposals that people have made to get fair discussion.

Clearly, the margin trading concept was a nifty idea that has legitimate uses, but it has a flaw that allows it to BREAK THE GAME. and BADLY. "very" badly, in fact. - normally when such a thing is found, it is fixed. Especially when there are ways to fix it that dont break anytihng.

Cant we talk about how to fix this properly?



no, we can't talk about fixing something that isn't broken. you complain of the market information the same way newbies were complaining about faction ship scams.

houndreds of thousands of idiots fell for dominixes renamed "Navy Dominix". untill in adition to the information on the damn "show info" window CCP added the Faction icon...

ofc, nowdays idiots still fall for faction scams buying Navy Megas renamed "vindicator". because its too much work to right click the damn ship before accepting the contract.

the problem is, unlike with ships, all the information you need is shown on the SAME window... so theres noone to blame but your own stupidity if you fall for one of those buy orders. and yeah, i said buy orders, not scams... because they are frikken buy orders. get over it.

im dead tired of repeating this, but i have to, ppl like you will never understand how this buy orders aren't scams utill you see that the market window is NOT "the market" it's just a listing of buy and sell orders. you can trust the information it shows because its real, the buy orders are there. now if you confuse them with the real price points of the goods you are trading, you deserve to go broke and go live under a bridge.

check the price history of any good youre trading, or go back to wow.
myFORUMalt alts
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-03-05 01:49:37 UTC
Just so you know
the eve market IS made of buy and sell orders

Oh, and there is an information window that indicates who the buyer is, and what his current wallet balance is. Can you show me this window.

Tool

Yes, I complain about things I don't like.
GreenSeed
#59 - 2012-03-05 02:36:48 UTC
myFORUMalt alts wrote:
Just so you know
the eve market IS made of buy and sell orders


no, thats the information that the market window shows, the market isnt limited to it.

myFORUMalt alts wrote:

Oh, and there is an information window that indicates who the buyer is, and what his current wallet balance is. Can you show me this window.

Tool



that information isnt displayed because you dont need to know it.

is the price over the price point you estimate from the information on the market history?

if it is, then its your call to decide wheter you fill that buy order or not. if you're a producer unloading your stuff on jita you dont really care, you just hit sell and if you like the price you hit "ok". if at any point a buy order has no isk to back it, it falls and you get another confirmation prompt for the next one. makes NO difference to honest sellers to find botched orders on jita.

NOW if you think youre clever and want to play station trader buying some crap off a contract to fill market order then its your choice and an informed one it is... the orders where there, the market history was there, hell even the fact thet the market buy order and the sell contract were on the same station is something to take into account.

if you decide to fill that buy order by buying low and selling high, then YOU are marging trading, and that has risks. one being having that buy order fall, get furfilled by someone else, or getting stuck with a bunch of useless Elite Drone AIs, or whatever you got scammed with.

im sorry if this offends you but where you see a scam i just see stupidity.
Ravenesa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-03-05 22:08:09 UTC
The Tags or other rare/low volume items make this an obvious scam for the uninformed, however you can use meta0 items to do the same thing. Raw ISK potential may not be there, but the amount of people that will fall for it goes up sharply. I know a few people that routinely pull in a few hundred million using everything from minerals to Meta1-4 items that are common rat drops sold on the market at or slightly above their mineral values. 20-50k an item, but done in batches of 100's works just as well.