Market Discussions

Of course it's used for its intended purpose. Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean that no one else does. I like it that I can place buy orders for fairly low volume items (or at prices that aren't the best, because I don't care about the volume coming in quickly) and still keep the ISK that would have otherwise been tied up liquid, for investing in things that make me more ISK quickly. The fact that I have more money in the wallet to invest in whatever means I make that much more money, when otherwise it would have all just been sitting in buy orders that aren't about to be filled in the next two hours.

As has already been pointed out, people make mistakes. Someone made a mistake with their WTB contract, and someone else capitalized on it. Someone else made the mistake of not looking up popular scams to see that this one is on that list, and someone else capitalized on it. Though in this case, if the OP is out of money and tags aren't to be found anywhere, it's a bug.

I can understand that.

But there should be a mechanic added that will allow you to have the minimal escrow but not allow the orders to fail. In the real world, if you are margin trading and you do not have the cash to back your orders at the end of the day, there is hell to pay. They can seize your assets and throw you in Jail.

Would be cool if they would allow wallets to just go negative and that toon could not set up any orders until returning to positive wallet. They would also have to make it so you can not delete or transfer a character off an account with a negative wallet.

The best that you can possibly hope for is either:

- CCP nerfs the margin trading skill (unlikely).

- CCP makes buy orders where there is not enough in the wallet to cover the transaction automatically filter (hide) from the buy window until there is enough ISK in the wallet. (Probably unlikely as well due to server load it would cause.)

- Learn how to spot the "too good to be true" deals and don't get suckered again.

EvE is a very cutthroat no-holds-barred market, if you can do it in-game, without using exploits, then it's allowed. And the margin trading scam is allowed (so is corp theft, scamming someone, cheating with lookalike items in contracts, shorting someone on a trade deal, stealing from their jetcan, blowing them up, etc.).

Which is one of EvE's central charms (over the long term).

Man, even people in jita use this skill. Pretty much it allows for many "catcher" orders for those times when price dips to its low point in the trend cycles. I wouldn't be too happy to have to tie up all those isk for weeks which is what you'd have to do without margin trading.

This skill is almost exclusively used exactly for its intended purpose. It would be extremely stupid to nerf it because occasionally someone gets played. I wouldn't even call it a scam.

This is true of every scam, but people would rather complain about a valid (illegitimate) use of a valid skill with valid (legitimate) uses in a game that's specifically sold as a sandbox in which anything (that is not an outright exploit (note that an exploit means actually breaking the game rules)) goes.


That said CCP has clarified contract pricing and added the II/III/faction */other corner icons to items, so maybe they'll bow to the careless in the end, and the game will get a little less fun.

You can transfer a character with a negative account but you cannot sell a character with negative account; CCP will reverse the transfer, refund the purchase and hunt down the pip taking out of wallets.

Regarding "the real world", you don't understand the complex nature of margin trading and the rules on all parties, please don't talk about it. I'm a professional forex trader now for 3 years and the rules are all the same governing margin trading in the US and abroad
. Your broker is 100% responsible for the margined account as they provide the margin to you based on the governing bodies rules. My account can trade at 50:1 in the US, other forex brokers outside the us offer 100:1 or 1000:1 on mini's. Futures are the same and stocks usually get a 2:1 or 5:1 depending on the broker.

What does this mean to you. You place money into escrow and open the trade with margin. While the trade is on the broker is calculating your profit/loss. If your loss exceeds your remaining equity the trade is automatically closed at the zero point and that's it. There is no negative as the broker is 100% liable for you going negative and must eat the loss. So they will not allow you to go negative. While the trade runs negative you'll also notice your available equity shrinks at a rate of the margin size to keep the overall margin in place until available equity hits near zero.

Similarly CCP is doing the exact same thing. You have a margin and money is placed in escrow for the trades. As the trades go they monitor your wallet and will cancel or zero out the trade when it exceeds your remaining equity, they will not allow you to go negative as well. Leveraged trading is a very powerful tool for traders and a small portion of scamers use it as well. Should we ban can ejection in space because a small portion of scamers use it on newbies to kill them or flip miners who then die?

As for going to jail, stop spouting out the stupid please. You only go to jail for committing a crime and exceeding your margin isn't a crime, its a civil matter. Also they don't "seize" all your assets, they merely take your remaining equity and you've blown your account. If somehow you went negative, with forex at least and I'm sure this is the same across the board as CFTC governs futures too, the broker can't go after you as they are required to have rules & trading procedures in place to prevent that from occurring.

The scams people pull in real life is not margin trading. They are complex ponzi's typically. Those break the law and those go to jail....even if the account margin never went negative!

Actually if you hit "agree" in real life without reading the fine print or doing your homework, no one goes to "butt f*ck" prison as you put it. Every 'scam' is someone using the rules and the fact that not everyone reads them to their advantage. An 'exploit' on the other hand is when someone breaks the rules. This is not an exploit, its a scam, and ccps position on scams is and always has been "good luck". If you hadn't figured that out before now, welcome to eve.

You're really offbase here but if you want where it says that here: margin trading.

YOU improperly assume there is some contract between YOU and the market which is incorrect. The contract regarding buy orders is between the BUYER and CCP who runs the market. CCP said the BUYER can place a margin order but if the BUYER fails to have the funds to cover the order then the order fails.

YOU purchased from a contract to sell to the market. The market ran the rules and failed the order as the BUYER didn't have the funds available. However, you were not scammed as you misunderstand what the contract seller sold you....GREED. You bought a large amount of greed and were probably gitty and happy. That is what you bought, now you have buyer's remorse.

Lets look at your thought process to make this "scam" occur.

1. You see a contract being offered in local for officer tags that they want to sell quickly
2. You look at the contract and see probably some high priced tags and low priced ones
3. You check the market and see the buy order for the tags is higher than the tag's contract value
4. You probably stupidly ignored the fact that there was a buy order @30m/tag with the next highest buy order @1m
5. You probably extremely really stupidly failed to see that the tag was being sold on the market @2.9 and I'm willing to bet this is a price that is lower than the contract price for the tag/item
6. You may or may not have seen the min value for the buy order, if you did you apparently didn't find it at least suspicious that the contract was selling the exact or just about exact amount as the buy order; if you didn't then you didn't properly read the market
7. But your purchased Greed is running high right now and your endorphins are up...you think you are about to make a nice 700m, buy a plex a new ship all
8. However, you failed to ask the question: why would this contract seller want to give ME the opportunity to pocket 700m when they could just press contract cancel, be out 10k broker fee and pocket the 700m?
9. Finally you press the buy button and nothing happens. Suddenly the greed you purchase ran its course and now you are suffering from greed buyer's remorse.

From this list at what stage did you need someone from CCP calling you to tell you there was a HUGE RED FLAG hanging around nearly EVERY step in the process? If its too good to be true, its probably a scam. Read over everything, run the number crunch. If you are under a time pressure let it go. But even then follow this rule:

If it looks like you can make money buying from a Jita Contract and selling to the Jita market.....it is 100 percent a scam all the time all day long.

I guess to sum it up.

Now i know. Dont trust market orders.

Sorta. I think the mechanic just needs a minor tweek really. In real life I can place the trade but my equity is eaten while it is negative until it is at 0. In EVE it's all or nothing which can be changed. To prevent these scams all CCP has to do is partially fill the order with the isk in escrow + remaining isk in wallet.

IN this respect, if the person can't fulfill a buy order of 20 but could fulfill a buy order of 5 then the game should eat their margin escrow and the wallet to zero. From an ethics standpoint I think it is in good form as well. Yes the buyer wanted 20 units at once but never had the isk to cover the buy, this is in bad faith. Therefore forcing the buy @ 5 units is a very equitable situation.

Also the margin trader (like myself) will not be affected by this type of change since we will watch our exposure. The only people affected are those unreasonably extended with margin and the scammers.