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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Death and taxes...
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Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-02-02 10:21:31 UTC
After a few days of ratting/salvaging and so on, I thought I'd make some ISK by selling the junk I've gathered, but I gave up after some time computing the relative benefit/cost of selling some stuff.

Most of the items I wanted to sell were "fried interface", "melted capacitors", etc. but given the product, the price difference can be huge and I have no idea how to get an overall fair idea of the price.

Sometimes I get a proposed price 80% below the average market value, sometimes 10% above... some products sell around 10 ISK a piece, and with the taxes and escrow (sounds like the french translation of 'crook', shall I see it as a sign?) I'm almost afraid of having to pay for getting rid of them.

I know Jita is *the* gank... er... market place of Eve, but what I try to understand is more about the mechanics of the market. Sometimes I see buy orders with a higher price, but if I try to sell the item, I end up with another price, apparently matching a different buy order.

I usually lookup prices of items I buy in ascending price order, unless there's like 25 jumps to get to it, I rather buy the cheapest than go lazy. If I sell something, I look at the prices it's sold, and align to them if the price suggested when I right-click>sell indicates a huge offset with regional average. Sometimes though, it's surprising to see sale orders for an item ranging from 2 millions to 4 millions with an offer at the bottom of the list at 100 millions, who would buy something 10000% above the usual price? or is it an attempt to raise the average value? Also, when people place buy orders 500% below the average value, same thing, illusional hope to get it cheap with someone's mistake or attempt to lower the average market value?

I have a fairly good standing at my stantion (above 2), but does it have an impact in trade as it does in manufacturing? also, some trade skills can probably help reduce these taxes, but I see there's a minimum of 100 ISK per sale, does that lower with skills or will it always be fixed... maybe I would have to sell in volumes then... but when I have orders pending for say, 15 "charred interfaces", I see taxes on each sale, be it 1 or 5 or the whole lot.

And what about reprocessing? can I get better prices of selling the resulting materials, or there's no difference between the item and it's reprocessed materials value?

Maybe someone could nudge me towards a good documentation?

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-02-02 11:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Sin Pew wrote:
After a few days of ratting/salvaging and so on, I thought I'd make some ISK by selling the junk I've gathered, but I gave up after some time computing the relative benefit/cost of selling some stuff.

Most of the items I wanted to sell were "fried interface", "melted capacitors", etc. but given the product, the price difference can be huge and I have no idea how to get an overall fair idea of the price.

Sometimes I get a proposed price 80% below the average market value, sometimes 10% above... some products sell around 10 ISK a piece, and with the taxes and escrow (sounds like the french translation of 'crook', shall I see it as a sign?) I'm almost afraid of having to pay for getting rid of them.

I know Jita is *the* gank... er... market place of Eve, but what I try to understand is more about the mechanics of the market. Sometimes I see buy orders with a higher price, but if I try to sell the item, I end up with another price, apparently matching a different buy order.

I usually lookup prices of items I buy in ascending price order, unless there's like 25 jumps to get to it, I rather buy the cheapest than go lazy. If I sell something, I look at the prices it's sold, and align to them if the price suggested when I right-click>sell indicates a huge offset with regional average. Sometimes though, it's surprising to see sale orders for an item ranging from 2 millions to 4 millions with an offer at the bottom of the list at 100 millions, who would buy something 10000% above the usual price? or is it an attempt to raise the average value? Also, when people place buy orders 500% below the average value, same thing, illusional hope to get it cheap with someone's mistake or attempt to lower the average market value?

I have a fairly good standing at my stantion (above 2), but does it have an impact in trade as it does in manufacturing? also, some trade skills can probably help reduce these taxes, but I see there's a minimum of 100 ISK per sale, does that lower with skills or will it always be fixed... maybe I would have to sell in volumes then... but when I have orders pending for say, 15 "charred interfaces", I see taxes on each sale, be it 1 or 5 or the whole lot.

And what about reprocessing? can I get better prices of selling the resulting materials, or there's no difference between the item and it's reprocessed materials value?

Maybe someone could nudge me towards a good documentation?


First, buy orders have range on which they can be fulfilled, if you look at the market window some buy-orders will be highlighted green. Those are the buy-orders which are currently in your range. Some people set buy-orders to be able to be fulfilled in entire region (means they have to collect it) others set the range to station only (means the guy selling it does the hauling). If you sell at default, you will automatically pick the 'best' buy order that is available to you (the best order that is highlighted green).

On the part where you sometimes get offers 80% below / 10% above regional price, keep in mind regional price is an avg of both buy and sell orders, so if someone places a huge (100mil items) order (either buy or sell, but likely buy) at 1ISK each the regional avg will drop, same the other way is someone does the opposite (100mil items for 500mil each) the regional avg. rises. So don't trust the regional avg. to be correct, always check the market to see if there are orders that alter that avg a lot.

Station (NPC corp) standing do not alter the taxes you pay in market transactions they only alter the refine / reprocess taxes. The only way to lower the taxes you pay on selling / buying products is by training skills found in the trading category (sorry out of game atm so can't look them up).

Sometimes it's more lucrative to reprocess items and sell the minerals, sometimes the item itself is worth more then the minerals. This depends on which item it actually is and also on your "refine / reprocess" skills, if you don't have many skills in that you will loose a lot of minerals (and with that ISK) to waste during the reprocessing.

On the point where you see buy-orders of 100mil while people sell at for instance 5mil. This is a SCAM known as the margin trader-scam. It works like this, with the margin trader scam you can lower the escrow you put in a buy order, if you don't have the skill you have to pay the full amount of money needed to buy the item up front (ergo, you pay that 100mil), each level of margin trading means you have to pay less up front (you still have to pay the amount needed when someone sells you the item, say your skills means you pay 20mil escrow, means you pay the other 80mil once someone sells you the item). The point where you can use this as as scam is that you can set up a buy order of 100mil if you have 21mil in your wallet but as you don't have the 80mil in your wallet after that nobody can sell to you. Some people will buy that item for the 5mil (usually they buy from an alt of the guy who puts up the 100mil buy-order) thinking they can sell it at 100mil, once they try, EVE will find out the 100mil order can't be fulfilled (as the owner doesn't have the money) and deletes the order. Usually the other buy-orders are well below the 5mil you paid for the item so you end up loosing money instead of making money on the item.

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Keno Skir
#3 - 2012-02-02 11:16:54 UTC
When you set a buy order (which is when you quote a price you will buy however many items at and people can sell to you if your price is the best in range) they choose an order range. The range is the number of jumps the buyer is willing to travel to pick up items sold to him. The market details view shows all current buy and sell orders in the region you are in, however you cannot sell to all the buy orders you see in the market view unless you are inside its order range.

For instance, if someone sets the order range to STATION, their order will show when you are looking for a buyer in region but you will only sell to this order if you are currently docked at the station the order is based at.

If someone sets the order range to REGION, then anyone in the region can sell tot his order regardless of range to the station the order is based at. This is because the buyer has stated he/she will pick up the items from anywhere in the region.

To wrap it up, viewing the buy orders in order of price is all well and good, but just cus it says 1mil at the top and 1isk right under it doesnt mean you will recieve 1mil if you sell the item there and then. Check the range of the orders and make sure you are inside it in order to recieve the top quoted price.

Sorry if that was a bit disjointed, kinda tired :)

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Kaneda Kurosawa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-02-02 16:17:43 UTC
One thing I tended to forget in the beginning was to include travel time in any profit calculations, i.e. how much money could I make ratting/missioning/pvping/mining etc in the time it takes me to fly to the best place to sell my items. If you enjoy traveling then this probably isn't an issue but if you do then it's worth remembering. Better to take a slight loss and spend more time doing what you enjoy than trying to max your profit (unless that's your thing of course).

Ding a ding dang my dang along ling long
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#5 - 2012-02-02 21:25:07 UTC
Kaneda Kurosawa wrote:
One thing I tended to forget in the beginning was to include travel time in any profit calculations, i.e. how much money could I make ratting/missioning/pvping/mining etc in the time it takes me to fly to the best place to sell my items. If you enjoy traveling then this probably isn't an issue but if you do then it's worth remembering. Better to take a slight loss and spend more time doing what you enjoy than trying to max your profit (unless that's your thing of course).

Make sure you include the time it took you to do all the calculations, too.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Kaneda Kurosawa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-02-03 07:47:21 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Kaneda Kurosawa wrote:
One thing I tended to forget in the beginning was to include travel time in any profit calculations, i.e. how much money could I make ratting/missioning/pvping/mining etc in the time it takes me to fly to the best place to sell my items. If you enjoy traveling then this probably isn't an issue but if you do then it's worth remembering. Better to take a slight loss and spend more time doing what you enjoy than trying to max your profit (unless that's your thing of course).

Make sure you include the time it took you to do all the calculations, too.


But...but...I like Maths Cool

Ding a ding dang my dang along ling long
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#7 - 2012-02-03 08:17:48 UTC
Kaneda Kurosawa wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Kaneda Kurosawa wrote:
One thing I tended to forget in the beginning was to include travel time in any profit calculations, i.e. how much money could I make ratting/missioning/pvping/mining etc in the time it takes me to fly to the best place to sell my items. If you enjoy traveling then this probably isn't an issue but if you do then it's worth remembering. Better to take a slight loss and spend more time doing what you enjoy than trying to max your profit (unless that's your thing of course).

Make sure you include the time it took you to do all the calculations, too.


But...but...I like Maths Cool

Yo dawg, I heard you like math so I put some math in your math so you can math while you math.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
malaire
#8 - 2012-02-03 10:59:34 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Station (NPC corp) standing do not alter the taxes you pay in market transactions they only alter the refine / reprocess taxes. The only way to lower the taxes you pay on selling / buying products is by training skills found in the trading category (sorry out of game atm so can't look them up).


Standings do affect Broker Fees, but you only pay those if you make buy or sell order instead of buying/selling directly.

Accounting skill reduces market tax, Broker Relations skill reduces broker fees.

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Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-02-03 11:23:11 UTC
It seems you got some good answers already, so I'll just answer random things from your post and hope the rest is covered already. ;)

Sometimes it's better to reprocess items and sell the minerals, sometimes it's better to sell the item as a whole. Basically you would have to calculate your profit for each item, but a good indicator can be the Meta level of an item. Higher meta level usually has a better chance to sell for more than the mineral outcome.

In that regard Reprocessing skills CAN increase your profit, but they require a lot of training to be effective. For example. "Scrapmetal Processing" requires Metallurgy V, which can take ages (at least if you have more important things to train). I really wouldn't suggest you train that, unless trading is your one and only interest.

About the 1000% overpriced items: It is just an attempt to rip off people and sometimes it works. Especially in regions where there is no big market for some items, people may just buy something as close as possible, not looking at the price. So they don't agree to the price, they just overlook it when they are in a hurry.
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-02-05 00:00:39 UTC
It depends on where your selling the stuff at. If your at a hub it usually is not worthwhile to move stuff from one hub to another unless you are talking about a large quantity. Sure, you might be able to make a little more per item, but in the time the trip takes you could have been doing something else to earn isk.