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Is it worth to train Golem?
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Spineker
#21 - 2012-02-01 20:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
OfBalance wrote:
You loose significant dps against cruisers and bc when using only 2 painters. This is from experience, not eft. Considering i'm using t2 torps most of the time, i'd rather not waste expensive volleys.

Spineker wrote:
Golem is 10x the ship a raven is I don't care what EFT claims. It is also superior to the CNR in almost all cases PVE.


Not even close to being true.



One shot most cruisers with 2 painters unless they were the speedy type. This experience also and 3 painters is just reducing your tank for no reason. The return is small. Gurista BC to Jave Kinetic go boom some of the higher end ones needed 2 volleys. If you need more than 2 painters you have some training to do. I have Mara V myself why half ass something?


Yes it is very true the Raven is far far below the Golem in every way.

Just the point of using 4 torps per volley is a huge savings.
Gurny Hallck
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-02-01 20:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gurny Hallck
stoicfaux wrote:
Gurny Hallck wrote:
tbh its probobly my favorite ship to pve in, cnr is really really boring, and i see some people saying juggling 3 painter's is hassle, thats just laughable, if i want to afk mission i use a navy domi, do it properly, if i want to just go in and blow crap up without logging a second account i use my golem because its actually alittle more fun over the other snooze options, and if i want to blitz i use a tengu, obviously. I never regretted skilling for the golem, my 2cents.

p.s. it's easier to fit a golem properly over a cnr, and with BS 5 you are on your way to a widow :)


Personally, I do kind of regret training for the Golem (i.e. missile bombardment and missile projection to V.) The Vargur runs missions faster than the Golem (even on missions that you can use a 5 TP setup.) The only mission that I've found where the Golem does better than the Vargur is a full blitz of Damsel. Load Rage torps, fill the mids entirely with tank, blow up the station, tractor the cans and get out before the tank fails. One minute, 43 seconds.

As for blitzing, the MWD Mach is better than the Tengu for most missions. The Tengu's tank is the only real difference in that it allows you to easily blitz things like Damsel (killing just the spider drones,) Blockade or Buzz Kill.



We will agree to disagree :)
OfBalance
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-02-01 20:45:49 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Spineker wrote:

One shot most cruisers with 2 painters unless they were the speedy type. This experience also and 3 painters is just reducing your tank for no reason. The return is small. Gurista BC to Jave Kinetic go boom some of the higher end ones needed 2 volleys. If you need more than 2 painters you have some training to do. I have Mara V myself why half ass something?


I also have marauders V. Of course a gurista BC is going to only require minimal volleys. They are slow and have enormous signatures for their size. Try those two painters on an angel cruiser and you'll see what I mean.

Spineker wrote:

Yes it is very true the Raven is far far below the Golem in every way.

Just the point of using 4 torps per volley is a huge savings.


The quote suggested you were talking about the CNR, not the raven. Of course any marauder is better than a standard raven, but a CNR is better in terms of absolutely generic pve applications. It looses some tank and raw dps for much better range and enough sensor strength to laugh off jammers.

I can't really speak to the savings between t2 torps on a golem and faction cruise missiles on a CNR so if that is the case, i'll take your word for it.
Gritchee
X-com Industries inc.
#24 - 2012-02-02 01:32:30 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Gritchee wrote:
Why do you guys say the golem is a torp ship? I see the same bonuses for cruise missiles also:

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity and 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
Marauders Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount and 7.5% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams


Yes, the Golem technically works with cruise missiles. However, it's a torp boat. Here's why.

1) Target painter bonus. CMs really don't need target painters; torps really, really do. This bonus basically means that torps are viable weapons on a PvE Golem whereas they really aren't on a CNR.

2) CNR's damage advantage. When directly comparing a Golem to a CNR with the same fittings, the CNR will always bring more raw damage to the table. 4*2 = 8 effective launchers < 7/.75 = 9 1/3 effective launchers.

Combine the two factors and you get this: a Golem only outperforms a CNR when it can use a higher damage option -- hence torpedoes. A solo CNR cannot compete effectively despite having higher raw damage numbers in a torp configuration because only the Golem gets the bonus for damage application. Hence, Golem is a torp boat.


Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. I understand now :)
Spineker
#25 - 2012-02-02 05:09:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
OfBalance wrote:
Spineker wrote:

One shot most cruisers with 2 painters unless they were the speedy type. This experience also and 3 painters is just reducing your tank for no reason. The return is small. Gurista BC to Jave Kinetic go boom some of the higher end ones needed 2 volleys. If you need more than 2 painters you have some training to do. I have Mara V myself why half ass something?


I also have marauders V. Of course a gurista BC is going to only require minimal volleys. They are slow and have enormous signatures for their size. Try those two painters on an angel cruiser and you'll see what I mean.

Spineker wrote:

Yes it is very true the Raven is far far below the Golem in every way.

Just the point of using 4 torps per volley is a huge savings.


The quote suggested you were talking about the CNR, not the raven. Of course any marauder is better than a standard raven, but a CNR is better in terms of absolutely generic pve applications. It looses some tank and raw dps for much better range and enough sensor strength to laugh off jammers.

I can't really speak to the savings between t2 torps on a golem and faction cruise missiles on a CNR so if that is the case, i'll take your word for it.



No I am talking about the Raven. Not the CNR which is best used as a cruise platform. Maybe I was not clear.

Angels are not hard to kill I generally kill the Angel BC's in Extrava first which are one or two volleys. By that time my drones have laid waste to the angle Frigs. Then just concentrate on the BSs. Bane Rage or whateve rthey are called today just waste them in a few hits. What I love with the Golem is the MoM or whatever that mission is called. 10m isk in a few moments.

I have not flown the Golem in months though.

If I gave advice to a new mission runner train up Tengu then after that train up whatever you enjoy flying including the Mach.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#26 - 2012-02-02 06:10:33 UTC
Raven is basic.

CNR is a great cruise missle ship.

Golem is great with torps.

I prefer a rattlesnake to all of them.
Jayne CyberKnight
Star One Corp
#27 - 2012-02-02 08:46:25 UTC
Tengu > Golem > CNR >> Raven, in my experience.

Tengu is very versatile. Raven class is mostly used for missions. Unless you have something against Tengu or just like Golem, I don't think it is worth it.
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#28 - 2012-02-02 13:50:47 UTC
The problem of the Golem is it's lack of versatility (limited range, poor damage application on fast or small targets) and annoying playstyle (volley counting, switching ammo, painters cycle)

That makes it great for specific applications, and bad for others: you want to use it where it shines, and switch to another ship otherwise. But then you will ask yourself: "Is the Golem really worth it ?"

My answer is no Lol
Gurny Hallck
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-02-02 16:06:16 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:
The problem of the Golem is it's lack of versatility (limited range, poor damage application on fast or small targets) and annoying playstyle (volley counting, switching ammo, painters cycle)

That makes it great for specific applications, and bad for others: you want to use it where it shines, and switch to another ship otherwise. But then you will ask yourself: "Is the Golem really worth it ?"

My answer is no Lol


The amount of horrible information on these forums makes me cringe, dont stack the torps, stick to using javs, with max skills its cake also you could you know, use drones DERP, 60km range is short? lock target put painter on it, uncycle it, now you have aggro, frigs cruisers move in more then fast enough to pop and salvage while you head towards bs's, as for painter cycle, try using painter's on a tengu its worse. golem is fine but i am finding it rather funny how caldari is now not the pve fotm and wimatar is instead, when did that happen?
stoicfaux
#30 - 2012-02-02 16:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Gurny Hallck wrote:
golem is fine but i am finding it rather funny how caldari is now not the pve fotm and wimatar is instead, when did that happen?

When people starting comparing mission times between the Mach/Vargur and the Golem.

edit: Also, for completeness, Nightmare.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#31 - 2012-02-02 16:56:57 UTC
Gurny Hallck wrote:
Sam Bowein wrote:
The problem of the Golem is it's lack of versatility (limited range, poor damage application on fast or small targets) and annoying playstyle (volley counting, switching ammo, painters cycle)

That makes it great for specific applications, and bad for others: you want to use it where it shines, and switch to another ship otherwise. But then you will ask yourself: "Is the Golem really worth it ?"

My answer is no Lol


The amount of horrible information on these forums makes me cringe, dont stack the torps, stick to using javs, with max skills its cake also you could you know, use drones DERP, 60km range is short? lock target put painter on it, uncycle it, now you have aggro, frigs cruisers move in more then fast enough to pop and salvage while you head towards bs's, as for painter cycle, try using painter's on a tengu its worse. golem is fine but i am finding it rather funny how caldari is now not the pve fotm and wimatar is instead, when did that happen?

My post is not information, it's just my opinion. Therefore totally subjective of course… Oh and I run mission exclusively in a CNR (after testing the Golem), and sometimes a Tengu, so no, I don't criticize Caldari ships ;)
Her Innocence Lost
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-02-02 17:06:09 UTC
Gurny Hallck wrote:
Sam Bowein wrote:
The problem of the Golem is it's lack of versatility (limited range, poor damage application on fast or small targets) and annoying playstyle (volley counting, switching ammo, painters cycle)

That makes it great for specific applications, and bad for others: you want to use it where it shines, and switch to another ship otherwise. But then you will ask yourself: "Is the Golem really worth it ?"

My answer is no Lol


The amount of horrible information on these forums makes me cringe, dont stack the torps, stick to using javs, with max skills its cake also you could you know, use drones DERP, 60km range is short? lock target put painter on it, uncycle it, now you have aggro, frigs cruisers move in more then fast enough to pop and salvage while you head towards bs's, as for painter cycle, try using painter's on a tengu its worse. golem is fine but i am finding it rather funny how caldari is now not the pve fotm and wimatar is instead, when did that happen?


I guess you haven't been around for a while?

Today the golem is literally the worst marauder overall. All the others, RAIL kronos included, apply more effective dps and all of them operate at more effective ranges. They are also all faster, speed wise, thanks to the speed nerf of loading javs. The selectable damage of the golem is mostly mitigated by the fact it is horrible against smaller ships and yes, 60k bleeding limit range is terrible. Torps, unlike guns, can and will run out of gas on their way to a target at 60k.

Maybe you missed the hybrid buff, forgot about the now-ancient projectile buff, and don't mission in space with em rats, but outside of some fairy land were you can shoot nothing but gurista bs rats without being jammed the golem has no ideal location.
Gurny Hallck
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-02-02 17:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gurny Hallck
Her Innocence Lost wrote:
Gurny Hallck wrote:
Sam Bowein wrote:
The problem of the Golem is it's lack of versatility (limited range, poor damage application on fast or small targets) and annoying playstyle (volley counting, switching ammo, painters cycle)

That makes it great for specific applications, and bad for others: you want to use it where it shines, and switch to another ship otherwise. But then you will ask yourself: "Is the Golem really worth it ?"

My answer is no Lol


The amount of horrible information on these forums makes me cringe, dont stack the torps, stick to using javs, with max skills its cake also you could you know, use drones DERP, 60km range is short? lock target put painter on it, uncycle it, now you have aggro, frigs cruisers move in more then fast enough to pop and salvage while you head towards bs's, as for painter cycle, try using painter's on a tengu its worse. golem is fine but i am finding it rather funny how caldari is now not the pve fotm and wimatar is instead, when did that happen?


I guess you haven't been around for a while?

Today the golem is literally the worst marauder overall. All the others, RAIL kronos included, apply more effective dps and all of them operate at more effective ranges. They are also all faster, speed wise, thanks to the speed nerf of loading javs. The selectable damage of the golem is mostly mitigated by the fact it is horrible against smaller ships and yes, 60k bleeding limit range is terrible. Torps, unlike guns, can and will run out of gas on their way to a target at 60k.

Maybe you missed the hybrid buff, forgot about the now-ancient projectile buff, and don't mission in space with em rats, but outside of some fairy land were you can shoot nothing but gurista bs rats without being jammed the golem has no ideal location.


Yup you are correct, paladin is good in any space, hybrid buff was amazing and now kronos is god, vargur does double a golems dps and moves twice as fast.... i guess ive been away to long.

and for the record if we are talking isk per hour then anyone with a brain would just go amarr space and fly a nightmare, or blitz for lp in a tengu, better yet just rat in a thanny..
these differences people keep ranting on about are so bloody insignificant.

i,ll let some eft warrior come into the thread and post times on WC in said ships in thread. Who knows, you might of saved enough time for a quick bio in ship a over ship b
Her Innocence Lost
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-02-02 17:47:44 UTC
Gurny Hallck wrote:

these differences people keep ranting on about are so bloody insignificant.


Considering any other marauder can essentially move 3 to 4x faster than a golem with an AB the golem can't even equip lest it loose precious painters. Considering that torp range has no falloff and that it is entirely possible for them to wiff things within their listed range. Considering it has every weakness of a marauder without half of the benefits... not very insignificant.

Stop glossing over the obvious problems with the golem. It is bad and CCP should feel bad that it needs so many goddamn painters just to function. Imagine a turret BS that needed three tracking comps in the mids just to apply some measure of dps to anything smaller than a battleship. Imagine if loading ammo into that ship to hit past 40km made it nearly as slow as a freighter. Now get over the fact that "ooh explosion animation pretty," and you'll realize the golem is a travesty.
Gurny Hallck
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-02-02 17:57:37 UTC
Her Innocence Lost wrote:
Gurny Hallck wrote:

these differences people keep ranting on about are so bloody insignificant.


Considering any other marauder can essentially move 3 to 4x faster than a golem with an AB the golem can't even equip lest it loose precious painters. Considering that torp range has no falloff and that it is entirely possible for them to wiff things within their listed range. Considering it has every weakness of a marauder without half of the benefits... not very insignificant.

Stop glossing over the obvious problems with the golem. It is bad and CCP should feel bad that it needs so many goddamn painters just to function. Imagine a turret BS that needed three tracking comps in the mids just to apply some measure of dps to anything smaller than a battleship. Imagine if loading ammo into that ship to hit past 40km made it nearly as slow as a freighter. Now get over the fact that "ooh explosion animation pretty," and you'll realize the golem is a travesty.


Yet i mission just dandy in mine, funny that.
Her Innocence Lost
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-02-02 18:21:15 UTC
Gurny Hallck wrote:
Her Innocence Lost wrote:
Gurny Hallck wrote:

these differences people keep ranting on about are so bloody insignificant.


Considering any other marauder can essentially move 3 to 4x faster than a golem with an AB the golem can't even equip lest it loose precious painters. Considering that torp range has no falloff and that it is entirely possible for them to wiff things within their listed range. Considering it has every weakness of a marauder without half of the benefits... not very insignificant.

Stop glossing over the obvious problems with the golem. It is bad and CCP should feel bad that it needs so many goddamn painters just to function. Imagine a turret BS that needed three tracking comps in the mids just to apply some measure of dps to anything smaller than a battleship. Imagine if loading ammo into that ship to hit past 40km made it nearly as slow as a freighter. Now get over the fact that "ooh explosion animation pretty," and you'll realize the golem is a travesty.


Yet i mission just dandy in mine, funny that.


Missions are hard, yep. Amazing you can get away with that. BTW, an assault frigate can complete L4s too. Pretty sure you wouldn't argue those are just as good as the alternatives though, but I guess that's because they cant do ZOMGVOLLEYDMG to certain battleships. Clearly a superior method of judging the overall effectiveness of a ship.
Gurny Hallck
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-02-02 18:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gurny Hallck
Her Innocence Lost wrote:
Gurny Hallck wrote:
Her Innocence Lost wrote:
Gurny Hallck wrote:

these differences people keep ranting on about are so bloody insignificant.


Considering any other marauder can essentially move 3 to 4x faster than a golem with an AB the golem can't even equip lest it loose precious painters. Considering that torp range has no falloff and that it is entirely possible for them to wiff things within their listed range. Considering it has every weakness of a marauder without half of the benefits... not very insignificant.

Stop glossing over the obvious problems with the golem. It is bad and CCP should feel bad that it needs so many goddamn painters just to function. Imagine a turret BS that needed three tracking comps in the mids just to apply some measure of dps to anything smaller than a battleship. Imagine if loading ammo into that ship to hit past 40km made it nearly as slow as a freighter. Now get over the fact that "ooh explosion animation pretty," and you'll realize the golem is a travesty.


Yet i mission just dandy in mine, funny that.


Missions are hard, yep. Amazing you can get away with that. BTW, an assault frigate can complete L4s too. Pretty sure you wouldn't argue those are just as good as the alternatives though, but I guess that's because they cant do ZOMGVOLLEYDMG to certain battleships. Clearly a superior method of judging the overall effectiveness of a ship.


Again you show nothing but drivel, so now in this thread /hybrids most op thing since mustard, vargur is best marauder for pve, paladin can and will own all 4 space, golem sux cuz you have to use tp's (god forbid you actually fit it properly dps is never an issue for me), it's slow at moving ( though i never move in mine unless there is a gate which still offer's no issues) and the difference between a golem and all other maruader's is the same as the difference between a decent BS against an assault frigate, k.

Now come back to me when you are doing WC 10+ minutes quicker in a different marauder over my golem, produce video evidence of this and then and only then i might stop feeding you troll cakes.
Her Innocence Lost
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-02-02 18:51:38 UTC
Gurny Hallck wrote:

Again you show nothing but drivel, so now in this thread /hybrids most op thing since mustard, vargur is best marauder for pve, paladin can and will own all 4 space, golem sux cuz you have to use tp's (god forbid you actually fit it properly dps is never an issue for me), it's slow at moving ( though i never move in mine unless there is a gate which still offer's no issues) and the difference between a golem and all other maruader's is the same as the difference between a decent BS against an assault frigate, k.

Now come back to me when you are doing WC 10+ minutes quicker in a different marauder over my golem, produce video evidence of this and then and only then i might stop feeding you troll cakes.


Way to show up your inability to read/comprehend the english language. Hyrbids aren't the best, but their improvement has made torps comparatively worse. I would have assumed a grade-school level education would have allowed you to elucidate that from my posting, but I guess we cannot make such grandiose assumptions these days, eh? The golem is comparatively worse than the vargur because three of it's mids are spoken for by active modules, yes that's a drawback. God forbid someone point out your beloved marauder is inefficient despite your apparent delusion that it is the best ship for... something you haven't named I guess because it certainly is not slowboating WC.

The diffirence between a golem and any other marauder have been listed: speed, range, inability to apply a large portion of your dps with a perfect setup, never mind one without at least three painters, and it has the same suceptability to jamming shared by all marauders (if you haven't noticed, most people fly tengus and faction bs today for good reason).

Your anecdotes fall completely flat. Feel free to post your elite golem videos for my amusement.
Gurny Hallck
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-02-02 19:33:36 UTC
Her Innocence Lost wrote:
Gurny Hallck wrote:

Again you show nothing but drivel, so now in this thread /hybrids most op thing since mustard, vargur is best marauder for pve, paladin can and will own all 4 space, golem sux cuz you have to use tp's (god forbid you actually fit it properly dps is never an issue for me), it's slow at moving ( though i never move in mine unless there is a gate which still offer's no issues) and the difference between a golem and all other maruader's is the same as the difference between a decent BS against an assault frigate, k.

Now come back to me when you are doing WC 10+ minutes quicker in a different marauder over my golem, produce video evidence of this and then and only then i might stop feeding you troll cakes.


Way to show up your inability to read/comprehend the english language. Hyrbids aren't the best, but their improvement has made torps comparatively worse. I would have assumed a grade-school level education would have allowed you to elucidate that from my posting, but I guess we cannot make such grandiose assumptions these days, eh? The golem is comparatively worse than the vargur because three of it's mids are spoken for by active modules, yes that's a drawback. God forbid someone point out your beloved marauder is inefficient despite your apparent delusion that it is the best ship for... something you haven't named I guess because it certainly is not slowboating WC.

The diffirence between a golem and any other marauder have been listed: speed, range, inability to apply a large portion of your dps with a perfect setup, never mind one without at least three painters, and it has the same suceptability to jamming shared by all marauders (if you haven't noticed, most people fly tengus and faction bs today for good reason).

Your anecdotes fall completely flat. Feel free to post your elite golem videos for my amusement.


and again i will say the same thing all over, the difference between the golem and other marauder's isnt ground breaking like you make out, i do agree that tengu/faction bs's can be better for several ovbious reasons but at the same time they cannot salvage, again it depends what excatly the person wants to do, is he a eft warrior seeking every single bit more isk over another ship? is he just relaxing making some cash here and there? presuming that everyone on here wants the "best" ship for the job is totally stupid because if that was the case all we would have in this game is a hanful of ships, you are making out the golem is massively worse over the other ships and this just is not the case, owning 3 of the 4 marauders i think i know better then so called alt trying to look cool and intelligent on ze forums.

ur turn
Her Innocence Lost
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-02-02 19:43:10 UTC
Gurny Hallck wrote:

and again i will say the same thing all over, the difference between the golem and other marauder's isnt ground breaking like you make out, i do agree that tengu/faction bs's can be better for several ovbious reasons but at the same time they cannot salvage, again it depends what excatly the person wants to do, is he a eft warrior seeking every single bit more isk over another ship? is he just relaxing making some cash here and there? presuming that everyone on here wants the "best" ship for the job is totally stupid because if that was the case all we would have in this game is a hanful of ships, you are making out the golem is massively worse over the other ships and this just is not the case, owning 3 of the 4 marauders i think i know better then so called alt trying to look cool and intelligent on ze forums.

ur turn


An EFT warrior, such as yourself, would see the list dps of the golem and be utterly impressed. Probably to the point of ignoring the obvious flaws that have been pointed out here. No, they don't add up to making the ship unuseable, but it certainly isn't a negligible diffirence when you're talking about the sheer number of better alternatives.

I'm glad you realize a posting alt has made you look less intelligent on the forums.
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