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Slavery: Opinions or Claims vs Official Statements

Author
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2011-09-16 02:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Arkady Sadik wrote:
My claim is that the Empire as it is right now is not frowning upon slavery or the enslavement of other cultures via a reclaiming. There is no evidence of the Empire slowly moving towards a better state regarding their imperialism and subjugation of other cultures (for me, the main relevance here being the Minmatar people). The main argument against this as repeatedly brought forth is the law that forbids taking slaves outside of the Empire; hence why I have repeatedly tried to show (with evidence, albeit not infallible proof) that this law is hollow.

Evidence brought forth so far:
- The Empire called for a "new Reclaiming" and started a new crusade to "teach" us Minmatar
- There have been a continuous trek of slave raids out of Empire space into Republic space, taking our people back into the Republic not to be seen again
- The corporations of the Empire have broken the trust put into them when they were allowed to establish themselves in the Republic by blatantly breaking Republic law

Of course the Empire is not frowning upon slavery or the idea of a Reclaiming. That, still, doesn't mean that the law against slave raids outside the Empire is hollow:
- The renewed Reclaiming has nothing to do with "slave raids", as it is a war situation brought about by the support the Republic was and still is offering the Elders.
- You failed to give evidence of such a "trek of slave raids out of Empire space into Republic space". You merely claim that the slave raids that occur within the Republic are Empire based.
- Corporations breaking trust put into them is regrettable, but really not a impinging the question of whether the law against slave raids is hollow or not. Generalizing said corporations to use them as a stand in for the entire Empire is not only factually wrong, but also doesn't change the impact on the question of the law.

Arkady Sadik wrote:
The counter-arguments on the silly side here have been that the slave raids from Empire space back into Empire space are the Republic's problem and that the corporations didn't take any slaves at all, breaking the law of the Republic is perfectly fine (which might be true if the argument was about the law only, but this is only part of the argument). The latter also implies that the Empire's corporations basically smuggled slaves from the Empire into the Republic to make them work in farms here, a claim I find the epitome of silliness, but ok.

While being counted on the "silly side" sounds awfully like an ad hominem to me, I'll take it as a compliment from someone who doesn't shy away from misconstruing the counterargument given by the opposing side like that:
I said slave raids in the Republic are indeed mainly the problem of the Republic. That they are out of the Empire and into the Empire is a claim you stated repeatedly, but have been unable to provide evidence for, so far. I also mentioned that in those cases that they are staged out of the Empire, they are dealt with, given the opportunity.
Breaking the law of the Republic is of course not "perfectly fine" as long as you're subject to those laws (e.g. by residing in the Republic). Again, though, it's nothing imperial law or imperial authorities have to deal with. It's a problem of the Republic, again.
Why should they raid for slaves, if slaves are, as you stated yourself, available on the market within Republic space? You stated yourself that there are convoys shipping slaves in. And there's been the statement that these corporations, that - by rumor - hold slaves within the Republic buy those from the Cartel. Maybe it's the Cartel doing the raiding?

Arkady Sadik wrote:
The only actual and sensible argument so far I heard is that the Empire is actively fighting the slave raiders into the Republic. I'm glad to hear so (and I'll take your word for it, I have so far not seen evidence of this).

That you think that the deployment of Imperial Navy troops within the Republic to hunt illegal raiders would be a "sensible argument" shows that you have a severe lack of diplomatic tactfulness as well as understanding of what sovereignty entails. As much as the IN would like to do something like that the authorities within the Republic would never accept it - with very good reasons, indeed.
The argument was that capsuleers loyal to the Empire - like me - are actively fighting slave raiders within the republic from time to time, as we are easily able to do so in accord with Republic authorities given our special status. I'm though, by no means the Empire - nor is the Empire what solely defines me, even though you put lots of efforts into making one and the other sounding the same.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2011-09-16 03:33:39 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
But considering the amount of raids and the other evidence brought up so far, I don't think this is changing my original point at all - that the Empire is firmly in favor of a new Reclaiming and conquest of other territories, and that the signs of the Empire calming down a bit there are vastly exaggerated by a few vocal pseudo-progressive Amarrians on IGS.

Now, considering all evidence brought up so far has been refuted, partly with absolutely egregious claims and excuses, I'm curious: What kind of evidence would you consider "actual" evidence?

Give footage of staging points of these raiders within the Empire. Show that the raiders you encounter come from the Empire. And importantly: Show that nothing is done about this in the Empire. (As you say: Lack of evidence does not equal eveidence of your favorite theory. This goes both sides.)
While I could give you some evidence of those staging points, I can deliver the evidence that they've been dealt with directly with that. I usually do so personally, if I encounter them. Also: I get paid for it.

The thing is, it's no secret that the Empire and the Republic aren't having the most amiable relations. You're certainly right on that. Nobody is claiming that anything is calming down in the Empire since the Elder incident.
But it's not true that the Amarr do say and preach one thing and do the other. We do exactly what we say. The renewed effort towards a Reclaiming is no secret. Still, illegal slave raiders are punished, whenever there's the opportunity to do so. There's no contradiction in that.
What agitates me is the lop-sided account of people like you, Cpt. Sadik, who try to shove as much of the weight of responsibility off the collective shoulders of the Repulic and onto the shoulders of the Empire. You present the case as if the Empire is unredeemably evil, lying and twisting words wherever possible, scheme sinsiter schemes of the downfall of the Republic – whatever the Empire does in that impacts the Republic is – must be, in your view – for the reason of damaging the Republic and – even worse – the Matari people.

I tell you a secret now: The Republic has achieved a lot and it's grudgingly respected by the Amarr and probably the entire cluster, except, well, by the Matari themselves who apparenty refuse to leave the role of the victim behind, who still need someone to blame all their problems on. Thus, they do about everything to self-stigmatize themselves as the eternal victims of the evil Empire.

Don't get me wrong here, I don't want to claim that the Empire isn't responsible for some amount of troubles the Republic is in. Still, you should start to grow up and accept how the responsibility is factually distributed – and that you stopped to be the poor victims some time ago. There should be no need for you to stigmatize yourself and to build up the phantasm of an incredibly evil Empire hell-bent on your obliteration. That's not what's happening. What we have is a pretty normal war, something that happens between states from time to time and for which responsibility seldomly lies on one side mainly, but mostly on both sides equally – as it is between the Empire and the Repulic right now.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#43 - 2011-09-16 06:44:33 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
That you think that the deployment of Imperial Navy troops within the Republic to hunt illegal raiders would be a "sensible argument"
You keep misrepresenting me like this, even after being explicitly told that this is not what I said. And not for the first time, either. I'll take the hint and will cease the discussion with you.
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
But it's not true that the Amarr do say and preach one thing and do the other. We do exactly what we say. The renewed effort towards a Reclaiming is no secret.
I guess we can depart in agreement, then.

Good luck, Ms. Mithra. You'll need it.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2011-09-16 06:59:15 UTC
Believe it or not I used to hold a barony, inherited from my family who have managed the area for generations. A sizeable subcontinent on a planet in outer Aridia, it was like a primitive Eden. Could never say slavewrangling was a great passion of mine though so a lot of crude villages had formed along the coastlines and jungles, etc.; really it was rather interesting watching these societies develop in isolation over the decades. Of course, when I decided to pursue my interests in capsuleering, I passed the stewardship on to my brother and he seems to have truly worked to cleaning up the mess I left behind, organizing it all proper and such.

Who has the time in the day to both manage slaves and live as a capsuleer, I can't really imagine.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2011-09-16 07:01:06 UTC
In any case, Blood Raiders are beyond the redemption of the Reclaiming, and I do my duty by vaporizing them outright.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2011-09-16 13:35:37 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I have never called for this, as I told you before.

I am not complaining about the Empire running slave raids into the Republic. I fully expect them to do so. I fully expect your corporations to subvert our laws and customs, I fully expect you to try and defeat us by whatever means necessary, and I fully expect you to plan to take every single one of my people into slavery. I am, once again, not pointing out that you are doing something I am not expecting, but that some of the Amarr are saying things that simply do not reflect reality.


We never promised to stop slave raids in general in the Republic. We didn't even promise to stop any of them: The only thing we did was and is declaring slave raids outside of the Empire as illegal by imperial law. Offenders will be dealt with appropriately within the Empire's borders, if catched. Also the Empire isn't running slave raids into the Republic at all. Just as one Republician killing an Amarr in the Empire's borders doesn't make it the Republics policy to act as terrorists.

Also, Paladin Farel, I didn't blame anyone for any wrongdoings. If anyone is to blame here, it's maybe Imperial Armaments for acting against the Republics laws in Republic space. There's a sharp and easy to grasp distinction between a corporation and a state, like the Empire. Really: IA isn't the Empire and if something like that happens, it's not a problem the Empire has to deal with, honestly. Claiming that the Empire promised to do so, is outright wrong. How the other three nations deal with slavery within their borders isn't something the Empire is responsible for, nor did it claim responsibility for that.


As I said, this is true. But punishing IA for that particular issue could be also seen as a sign of good gesture. After all, IA, even with its status of corporation, is one of the direct arms of the imperial administration (as stated directly in its title, unlike independant entities like Carthum, etc).
Brothar Rey
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#47 - 2011-09-18 03:06:14 UTC
I, for one, support slavery.

It will not do to entrust the breaking of the ground by bovine power - especially by the ones bought on the market that glow with a greenish hue.

Yes. Better to hitch up several slaves to do the work then to have radioactive green cows do it.

Farms feed families. And if someone is purchased and put to good honest work, instead of allowing them to waste their lives in pursuit of crime or sloth or whatever form of uselessness they can come up with - then slavery is just social reform that can only benefit all.



** These are my own opinions, and my or may not be supported by my Corporation **
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2011-09-18 06:21:03 UTC
Brothar Rey wrote:
I, for one, support slavery.

It will not do to entrust the breaking of the ground by bovine power - especially by the ones bought on the market that glow with a greenish hue.

Yes. Better to hitch up several slaves to do the work then to have radioactive green cows do it.

Farms feed families. And if someone is purchased and put to good honest work, instead of allowing them to waste their lives in pursuit of crime or sloth or whatever form of uselessness they can come up with - then slavery is just social reform that can only benefit all.



** These are my own opinions, and my or may not be supported by my Corporation **


What is this incoherent prattling about green cows? Moving on..

Do you really think that the Minmatar people are not capable of anything but crime? They've made great strides in starship engineering and social institution. I don't think you have any base for your rabid racism.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#49 - 2011-09-18 09:11:53 UTC
Apologies for returning to the old topic, but well. I am expecting the Empire to run slave raids into Republic space. That is only logical in their place. Nevertheless, I am repeatedly told that no, the Empire does not do such things - it's illegal, those ships are not really Imperial ships, and the Empire hunts them down when they come back to the Empire, and all of this is a sign that the Empire's view on slavery is changing and that things are improving.

So, I was just (once again) asked to dismantle a slave compound in the midst of deadspace in Republic high-sec. Civilians in the system were enslaved and brought to this compound to work for the Empire. The compound was guarded by Imperial Navy ships carrying Imperial Navy dogtags, and shooting them down causes the Empire to lower their standings with the aggressor.

Not the first time this happened, either. Actually, this happens rather regularly.

Hence, I will continue to assume that the Empire is doing just what I am expecting it to do, that the imperial law to not enslave people outside of the Empire is hollow, meaningless and not reflecting of the Empire's current stance, and that the stated aim of the 24th Imperial Crusade to "reclaim the Minmatar from the drudge, chaos and inhumanity in which they currently dwell, and into God's light" is, indeed, the current stance of the Empire.

I wish the progressive Amarrians in the Empire good luck, but I recommend you to not try and be too happy about obvious appeasement moves - they tend to divert attention.
Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#50 - 2011-09-18 11:34:00 UTC
You know, the borders of the Amarr Empire are pretty much open to interpretation, depending on how much you wanna 'reclaim.'


Oh and as for Imperial Armaments being sleazebags, I think Carthum Conglomerate have them beat. Here is a mission request one of my spies intercepted from them. Vitoxin was just the beginning. I have hijacked an entire Impel full of these new designer subjection drugs. They are indeed real and the imperialists are forcing stuff like this upon your people as I write this.

---

Mission briefing
In order to get around the laws pertaining to the transportation of illegal drugs through Amarr Empire space, we have been forced to create new and unknown substances for use on, or by, rather, our various slave labor enclaves. This new drug, Blue Paradise, does away with many of the harmful chemicals previously used while actually increasing the pleasurable effects. We are certain that, properly controlled and distributed, introduction of this drug into the slave labor workforce will increase productivity by a substantial margin. We are counting on you to deliver it to the designation transshipment station as soon as possible.

Biochemical Agents for Improved Slave Workloads
We all know that there have been a long series of proclamations, laws, and rules banning the transportation of illegal drugs (and some legal drugs) in Amarr space for use in slave labor. These prohibitions have typically had no real teeth, unless of course the Empress herself sets forth an official decree specifically banning a given substance. The logical, time-tested way around this has been to create entirely new generations of performance enhancing biochemical drugs.

As slaves are typically wary of any pills or other obvious means of altering their behavior (recalling, as we must, the various slave uprisings that have occurred when we tried to openly force drugs on them), we’ve had to resort to less obvious methods. For example, we have surreptitiously and gradually delivered the drugs into laborer’s systems through aerosols in their habitat ventilation systems, impregnated substances into their foodstuffs and water supplies, and other rather clever means, I won’t go into here. What is important is that the result has almost always been a positive one, with significant increases in worker productivity.

The downside to this, however, has been a decline in overall slave lifespans due to the long term effects of these drugs. Normally, this would be considered simple attrition; a cost of doing businesses. However, as it continues to become more and more difficult to obtain new slaves (particularly given the intolerable and unjust interference of the other empires), this solution is less and less viable. We need them to live as long as possible. This reality, of course, leads us to the only other benign option – drugs as a part of a rewards system for those slaves who meet a certain work quota each day.

To this end, we shall continue to develop new substances to both avoid interference by Customs and police forces and to ensure the maximum possible output by our slave laborers.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2011-09-18 11:37:16 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I am expecting the Empire to run slave raids into Republic space. That is only logical in their place.


How low are your ethics. I am surprised.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#52 - 2011-09-18 12:07:51 UTC
Kazzzi wrote:
You know, the borders of the Amarr Empire are pretty much open to interpretation, depending on how much you wanna 'reclaim.'
Yeah. Considering the amount of horrible excuses I have heard so far, I think the Amarr are just trying a quite unsuccessfull propaganda move here. I do not understand why these Amarrians can not just either be loyal to their Empire and stand in for what the Empire is doing, or take a stance for their ideas and dissent from that Empire.

I've seen Amarrian breeder facilities in the Republic, Amarrian-run fake mining corporations with the aim to take the workers back to the Empire as slaves, Amarrians setting up bases in stations to do planetary raids for new slaves, trying to drop gas forms of Vitoxin to planets, their corporations - let into the Republic in good fate for a better coexistence - breaking our laws and doing just what the Amarr have always done.

And all of this for many years now, way before the war started. The Amarr have abused every bit of trust, friendliness and openness we have showed them, for over a hundred years now.

Still, some Amarr yammer endlessly on IGS on how they have done so much, and we Minmatar are so ungrateful.

I do hope for those Amarrians that their God appreciates dishonesty, because that's pretty much the last hope these people have for their afterlife. (Or wait, they're capsuleers, they probably do not fear that ...)

You can not be loyal to the current Empress and be progressive at the same time. You can not fight for the 24th Imperial Crusade and be pgoressive at the same time. Those who do that and claim to be progressive or interested in a peaceful solution to this conflict are hypocritical liars, and the only reason I can think of for their actions is that they're trying to appease to the ever-growing group of dissidents in the Empire, trying to safe the antiquated Empire of Reclaiming and Slavery from those who might give the Empire an actual future.
Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#53 - 2011-09-18 13:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazzzi
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Yeah. Considering the amount of horrible excuses I have heard so far, I think the Amarr are just trying a quite unsuccessfull propaganda move here. I do not understand why these Amarrians can not just either be loyal to their Empire and stand in for what the Empire is doing, or take a stance for their ideas and dissent from that Empire.


None of the Imperial agents I've ever spoken to ever seem to have a problem with this, they embrace all the Imperial shenanigans the rest of the cluster deems unethical. It's mainly just their capsuleers who perpetuate this 'Amarrian Denial.' My theory is Imperial Acadamy brainwashing giving them all a goodguy complex.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2011-09-19 10:48:52 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:

You can not be loyal to the current Empress and be progressive at the same time. You can not fight for the 24th Imperial Crusade and be pgoressive at the same time. Those who do that and claim to be progressive or interested in a peaceful solution to this conflict are hypocritical liars, and the only reason I can think of for their actions is that they're trying to appease to the ever-growing group of dissidents in the Empire, trying to safe the antiquated Empire of Reclaiming and Slavery from those who might give the Empire an actual future.


Too bad, I understood your concerns until I read that blanket nonsense. Very fractionite, by the way.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2011-09-19 10:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Kazzzi wrote:
You know, the borders of the Amarr Empire are pretty much open to interpretation, depending on how much you wanna 'reclaim.'


Oh and as for Imperial Armaments being sleazebags, I think Carthum Conglomerate have them beat. Here is a mission request one of my spies intercepted from them. Vitoxin was just the beginning. I have hijacked an entire Impel full of these new designer subjection drugs. They are indeed real and the imperialists are forcing stuff like this upon your people as I write this.


Perhaps you could also inform us of some of the other tasks that your "spies" have been asked to perform? You know, the ones which demonstrate just how aggressive the Republic is when it comes to violating Amarrian sovereignty?

Oh, but then again, I guess that wouldn't fit in with your self-hating anti-Amarrian agenda, would it?

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#56 - 2011-09-19 11:45:33 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:

Perhaps you could also inform us of some of the other tasks that your "spies" have been asked to perform? You know, the ones which demonstrate just how aggressive the Republic is when it comes to violating Amarrian sovereignty?

Oh, but then again, I guess that wouldn't fit in with your self-hating anti-Amarrian agenda, would it?



You're right. It wouldn't, because neither my spies nor myself have any loyalty to or affiliation with the Republic. I won't deny that RSS agents are indeed quite cutthroat though.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#57 - 2011-09-19 12:04:04 UTC
Kazzzi wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

Perhaps you could also inform us of some of the other tasks that your "spies" have been asked to perform? You know, the ones which demonstrate just how aggressive the Republic is when it comes to violating Amarrian sovereignty?

Oh, but then again, I guess that wouldn't fit in with your self-hating anti-Amarrian agenda, would it?



You're right. It wouldn't, because neither my spies nor myself have any loyalty to or affiliation with the Republic. I won't deny that RSS agents are indeed quite cutthroat though.


I was referring to them being asked by Amarrian corporations to prevent crimes being comitted by Minmatar forces.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#58 - 2011-09-20 19:47:01 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
I was referring to them being asked by Amarrian corporations to prevent crimes being comitted by Minmatar forces.


Imperial agents have never asked my spies to do anything, except to stay out of their underwear drawers.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2011-09-21 10:03:38 UTC
Kazzzi wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
I was referring to them being asked by Amarrian corporations to prevent crimes being comitted by Minmatar forces.


Imperial agents have never asked my spies to do anything, except to stay out of their underwear drawers.


That's odd, only a few days ago you were posting mission briefings provided by your spies.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#60 - 2011-09-21 11:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazzzi
Rodj Blake wrote:
That's odd, only a few days ago you were posting mission briefings provided by your spies.


Kazzzi wrote:
Here is a mission request one of my spies intercepted from them.


My spies in this case were not asked to perform any mission except the one I have tasked them with. Which is spying.

Indeed the spy in question isn't even a capsuleer.