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Intergalactic Summit

 
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To the Minmatar Pilot who destroyed my vessal

Author
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#41 - 2012-01-30 17:54:35 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:


God is benevolent towards his creation, and one of his greatest gifts to humanity is free will.

So whilst He could force people to do anything He wants, He chooses not to in order to preserve our free will. That's not to say that He doesn't want us all to behave in a certain way, and that's why He has given the people of Amarr a task (which we have freely accepted) to spread His word and educate humanity.



To educate at the barrel of a gun? That, sir, is not education but, physical coercion under penalty of great bodily harm or death. Offering a man the "choice" of accepting your theology and culture or shooting him in the head is no choice at all.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2012-01-30 18:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Nick Bete wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:


God is benevolent towards his creation, and one of his greatest gifts to humanity is free will.

So whilst He could force people to do anything He wants, He chooses not to in order to preserve our free will. That's not to say that He doesn't want us all to behave in a certain way, and that's why He has given the people of Amarr a task (which we have freely accepted) to spread His word and educate humanity.



To educate at the barrel of a gun? That, sir, is not education but, physical coercion under penalty of great bodily harm or death. Offering a man the "choice" of accepting your theology and culture or shooting him in the head is no choice at all.


Education often requires a degree of coercion. Does your Federation not compel parents to ensure that their children are educated?

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-01-30 19:13:05 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:


Education often requires a degree of coercion. Does your Federation not compel parents to ensure that their children are educated?


Im sure the Federal authorities go house to house with military hardware asking if their children are in school and summarily executing said child if they do not have a full attendence record.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2012-01-30 19:37:08 UTC
Khazarn Areth wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:


Education often requires a degree of coercion. Does your Federation not compel parents to ensure that their children are educated?


Im sure the Federal authorities go house to house with military hardware asking if their children are in school and summarily executing said child if they do not have a full attendence record.


One minute you're saying how the right way to treat slaves is to work them half to death and then drain their blood, and the next you're supporting an anti-slavery campaigner.

You seem conflicted.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-01-30 19:47:36 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:


One minute you're saying how the right way to treat slaves is to work them half to death and then drain their blood, and the next you're supporting an anti-slavery campaigner.

You seem conflicted.


No no, the right way to treat Imperial Navy personell, besides i support anyone who goes against Amarrian loyalists.

Do try to pay attention Mr Blake.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2012-01-30 19:50:53 UTC
You're a very angry man.

I pity you.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-01-30 19:55:32 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
You're a very angry man.

I pity you.


If you think so, Mr Blake.





Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#48 - 2012-01-31 07:13:03 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Khazarn Areth wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:


Education often requires a degree of coercion. Does your Federation not compel parents to ensure that their children are educated?


Im sure the Federal authorities go house to house with military hardware asking if their children are in school and summarily executing said child if they do not have a full attendence record.


One minute you're saying how the right way to treat slaves is to work them half to death and then drain their blood, and the next you're supporting an anti-slavery campaigner.

You seem conflicted.



And you seem to have dodged his question.

To answer yours however Pilot Blake, there is no equivalency between the Federal government enacting and enforcing laws to ensure that all citizens have a minimum education so that they can survive in society and your people's systematic destruction of all cultures and belief systems that are not yours through force of arms. Failure to send a child to school in the Federation might earn the parents a fine, incarceration or, in egregious cases, the removal of the child from the home. Failure to accept your deity and culture carries the penalty of multi-generational slavery in the best of circumstances and genocide in the worst.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Reann Amelana
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2012-01-31 16:21:02 UTC
There is an equivalence of responsibility to do your best for those under both your protection, granted your illustration is nicely scewed to pull on the heartstrings of the Gallente Sympathisers who follow your every word i am sure. However, the fact of the matter is that God has instructed us as his tools in this realm to do our best for those around us, and we follow his word. Your ignorance of these instructions may be remedied easily, we have monasteries and retreats where you may visit to learn more of Gods work, i would encourage you to visit them.

Fighting against Gods forces will however carry punishments that may require lifetimes of service to work off the penance for doing so under the eyes of a Holder of the Empire, however for those who come to accept God their is no requirement to serve like this, you may see this in the faces of the pilots who fly for the CVA, pilots of all races fly for them and serve them willingly, and very few of these have ever been slaves.

Granted what does it say of an empire who allow Slaves to fly a Pod fitted vessel? I have heard of some but have not met them myself, perhaps i should endeavour to do so it should help motivate those under my command to rise above thier meagre stations.

Now has anyone heard of my the welfare of my slave? I fear i may have to throw a wake in his memory and ask the priests to pray for his soul.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#50 - 2012-02-01 07:09:23 UTC
If the analogy was skewed then blame your Admiral Blake as it was him, not I, who first raised it.

P.S. Insulting those whom you're attempting to "convert" isn't very effective but, thanks for the backhanded compliment. I seriously doubt that any Gallenteans (aside from possibly my parents) are hanging on my every word. Also, for the record, I'm familiar with some of your scriptures. I'm not ignorant of them, I simply reject them.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Reann Amelana
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-02-01 13:23:25 UTC
The scewing was referring to sending people to school with a gun, something we do not do. As for the apparant insult? Well you are an egger, I would imagine that this is something to invoke awe in your culture, after all, you don't really care for your souls do you? Otherwise you would have accepted the one true faith , as you have rejected them, there is little to be done for you, however it may be that we may save your descendants.
Aris Tarchos
The Sagan Clan
#52 - 2012-02-01 20:53:22 UTC
Humanity has existed for millennia, and yet we still have those who see fit to enslave others on the basis of their own imagined self-importance.

I wish the as-yet-unnamed chap well, and if you truly care about his wellbeing you will release him and his family when he arrives to meet them.
Vetr Saken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-02-02 09:10:26 UTC
Reann Amelana wrote:
Granted your tone suggests that you are close-minded and are here to attempt to "prove" how little god means to you, In which case you have my pity.
In actual fact, ‘God’ means a great deal to me, though I don’t usually refer to the Divine by that particular name. Referring to ‘Him’ as ‘God’, I think, implies knowledge of nature and personality, which I don’t believe humans can possess. And if I’m sceptical of those who suggest that much knowledge, you can imagine how suspicious I am of those who reckon to know ‘His’ will, and use it to justify violence and oppression.

And as much as I might misunderstand your religion – as you rightly suggest, I’ve spent little time studying Amarr scripture – I am as aware as anyone else of the acts of the Empire over the years. I don’t for one moment suggest that any one of our nations is free of guilt in the humanitarian stakes – but as far as I know Amarr is the only one that claims the divine right to commit atrocity.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Scripture teaches that The Amarr are God's chosen servants in the world, and that he acts through them.
Amarr scripture, of course. The crux of the matter is this:

Quote:
If you accept the Amarrian Scripture as your basis of argument, then this paradox is already ironed out.
It surely doesn’t take a theologian to see that if I accept the Scripture as true then I will believe the Scripture is true.

I should just clarify here that I’m not condemning the Amarr as a people – I don’t know nearly enough about them to do that. But I can condemn what their Empire has done, much as I can condemn many of the things my own mother State has done, and even, to some degree, some of the policies of my adoptive Federation. In all cases, it is the leadership – in the Empire’s case, the religious leadership – who bear the responsibility for these things.

As I said, I’m no theologian. Certainly I know little about Amarrian doctrine save what I read in this forum. But if what seems to me to be an obvious flaw in their basic reasoning can only be addressed by telling me I’d feel differently if I was a believer, or that their theologians have spent millennia figuring out workarounds, then I don’t see that it’s any less a flaw.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
It's just like people who try to claim that God can not be Omnipresent, Omniscient, and All Benevolent in a world where Evil exists. Indeed. The Amarr never claimed God was benevolent.
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is benevolent towards his creation, and one of his greatest gifts to humanity is free will.
I think it would be ungracious of me to offer further comment here.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#54 - 2012-02-02 20:57:18 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is benevolent towards his creation, and one of his greatest gifts to humanity is free will.


And then his most loyal followers attempt to deny others such a beautiful gift, bit heretical that surely? I mean who are you to say you know better than God to decide who should be allowed to think and decide for themselves, and who should do as you tell them to?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#55 - 2012-02-02 21:15:18 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is benevolent towards his creation, and one of his greatest gifts to humanity is free will.


And then his most loyal followers attempt to deny others such a beautiful gift, bit heretical that surely? I mean who are you to say you know better than God to decide who should be allowed to think and decide for themselves, and who should do as you tell them to?


That is what someone would call the paradox of free will. You are free to choose to do the wrong thing but you should not do that thing in question.

What makes free will a blessing is choosing to serve in God's light when the time comes to knowingly make that choice.

How or where is what you take issue with.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#56 - 2012-02-02 21:23:44 UTC
Quote:

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
It's just like people who try to claim that God can not be Omnipresent, Omniscient, and All Benevolent in a world where Evil exists. Indeed. The Amarr never claimed God was benevolent.
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is benevolent towards his creation, and one of his greatest gifts to humanity is free will.
I think it would be ungracious of me to offer further comment here.


I'm starting to question whether Mr. Blake has actually read the scriptures. Mercy is for the Emperor, judgement is for God.. It is, in short, ours to give, in the Amarrian view of things.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#57 - 2012-02-02 22:35:41 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is benevolent towards his creation, and one of his greatest gifts to humanity is free will.


And then his most loyal followers attempt to deny others such a beautiful gift, bit heretical that surely? I mean who are you to say you know better than God to decide who should be allowed to think and decide for themselves, and who should do as you tell them to?


That is what someone would call the paradox of free will. You are free to choose to do the wrong thing but you should not do that thing in question.

What makes free will a blessing is choosing to serve in God's light when the time comes to knowingly make that choice.

How or where is what you take issue with.


So the only way to have free will is by not having free will at all?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#58 - 2012-02-02 23:56:54 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is benevolent towards his creation, and one of his greatest gifts to humanity is free will.


And then his most loyal followers attempt to deny others such a beautiful gift, bit heretical that surely? I mean who are you to say you know better than God to decide who should be allowed to think and decide for themselves, and who should do as you tell them to?


That is what someone would call the paradox of free will. You are free to choose to do the wrong thing but you should not do that thing in question.

What makes free will a blessing is choosing to serve in God's light when the time comes to knowingly make that choice.

How or where is what you take issue with.


So the only way to have free will is by not having free will at all?

Sorry, I don't buy it.


But you use it every day. I'm not here to argue slavery its just your comments regarding free will caught my eye.

Its the same as any law. Lets use the example of do not steal. This is something every culture can agree on. every person has the choice to refrain from stealing regardless of temptation. Some people however choose to do it anyway and one could argue in a world where you can very easily be caught this will end badly for the thief.

So taking that mentality lets return to the question at hand. You have people who have their right to not serve God however assuming and I'm asking you to give me the benefit of the doubt HE exists its in your best interest to do so.

However no you don't have to but its better in the long run if you do.

Derailments aside you can see where I'm going.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#59 - 2012-02-03 00:07:26 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is benevolent towards his creation, and one of his greatest gifts to humanity is free will.


And then his most loyal followers attempt to deny others such a beautiful gift, bit heretical that surely? I mean who are you to say you know better than God to decide who should be allowed to think and decide for themselves, and who should do as you tell them to?


That is what someone would call the paradox of free will. You are free to choose to do the wrong thing but you should not do that thing in question.

What makes free will a blessing is choosing to serve in God's light when the time comes to knowingly make that choice.

How or where is what you take issue with.


So the only way to have free will is by not having free will at all?

Sorry, I don't buy it.


But you use it every day. I'm not here to argue slavery its just your comments regarding free will caught my eye.

Its the same as any law. Lets use the example of do not steal. This is something every culture can agree on. every person has the choice to refrain from stealing regardless of temptation. Some people however choose to do it anyway and one could argue in a world where you can very easily be caught this will end badly for the thief.

So taking that mentality lets return to the question at hand. You have people who have their right to not serve God however assuming and I'm asking you to give me the benefit of the doubt HE exists its in your best interest to do so.

However no you don't have to but its better in the long run if you do.

Derailments aside you can see where I'm going.


When you word it like that then yes I see your point. I can't agree with it due to a different opinion on faith, but there it's probably best to agree to disagree.

There's a difference between choosing faith and stealing though, choosing to not believe doesn't cause anyone else grief (unless they're incapable of not meddling in the affairs of others) stealing does.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#60 - 2012-02-03 03:49:23 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:


When you word it like that then yes I see your point. I can't agree with it due to a different opinion on faith, but there it's probably best to agree to disagree.

There's a difference between choosing faith and stealing though, choosing to not believe doesn't cause anyone else grief (unless they're incapable of not meddling in the affairs of others) stealing does.


That is fair but we have a better understanding of each others mindset which always helps. This is all I was going for.

If there were more exchanges like that we would/could have peace in the cluster.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.