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New player pays the price...
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Astro Jones
AJ Corp
#121 - 2012-01-30 22:41:56 UTC
bumped this just to see if the dev gods have anything to say...
Jacob Stiller
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-01-31 00:31:20 UTC
Medical clones have been a core part of the game since it was released 8 years ago. The odds of getting a dev response are nonexistant.
Liam Mirren
#123 - 2012-01-31 00:36:32 UTC
Jacob Stiller wrote:
Medical clones have been a core part of the game since it was released 8 years ago. The odds of getting a dev response are nonexistant.


Nor do they need to. Medical clones are a well known mechanic in EVE, any one playing since 2009 should know about it and has no excuse not to. It gets covered in the tutorials, it's on the wiki and forums and just about everyone will tell you to update your clone. Ignorance is not a valid reason to have game mechanics adapted.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#124 - 2012-01-31 00:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Astro Jones wrote:
The more I read this post the more this bother's me...I believe this is a 100% fail on the dev's part....ok I got killed, I lost my ships, I lost my augmentations, I totally wasted my time trying...The fact that I lost 40 days of training is just wrong and way to harsh for anyone...If anything clone cost should be a automatic thing.

why? Its like asking for a automatic insurance on ship loss. A up2date clone is your insurance.

The longer you play eve, the worse a clone loss penalty could hit you. On the other hand the less likely it it that you don't upgrade it. If you are a noob, you don't care about the 2h of lost skills if you forgot it the first time.

How often do you engage an enemy as eve vet and notice that your ship is not fitted? Same thing.
Losing should have a meaning in eve. This is a good thing. It encourages gameplay where you think before you act.

The OP is a corner case. Who skills 3 years without playing the game? Sure you can, but its like complaining that you got killed by concord after you attacked with your carrier (via plex) the gate in highsec the first time you played the game in the 3 years of skilling.


this is game design.
the real question is: does the game inform you well enough if you do stupid things?
e.g
- undock without a fitting
- undock with a out-of-date clone
- undock in a t3
...

decide yourself. Its a balance between being annoying and being unfair.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Arsedestroyer
Doomheim
#125 - 2012-01-31 01:21:49 UTC
Can't CCP just change the game so that once your ship is destroyed and your pod is killed, you're a ghost and can move back to pick up your gear?
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2012-01-31 01:29:43 UTC
again, I understand how it works. I don't shy away from loss being 'real' in a game because in the end, it's really not. It's game items.
But SP doesn't fall into that category. The loss of SP is a useless mechanic. There is no 'PvP' involved with clones. If they were a player made item, then maybe it would be excusable (but I still doubt that). But it's not anything but a seldom used thing that is easy to forget, and yet can utterly ruin the game for someone.

There just has to be a limit to the harsh-ness of loss in a game before it simply becomes masochistic. Most people in Eve have no problem learning from a mistake- but having a toon literally un-learn months of training because of it? And not in under the guise of some kind of PvP function to boot?

It's the truth- Eve's players complain that so few people want to PvP, but then staunchly defend every hurdle CCP has thrown at you to actually get out and do it! A crazy grind for JC's, a clone upgrade system that benefits no one, etc......

Ditching the different level clones would have a zero net effect. It's just trimming the fat, really.
Annoyed Tritanium Bar
Doomheim
#127 - 2012-01-31 01:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Annoyed Tritanium Bar
Alaric Faelen wrote:
There is no 'PvP' involved with clones. If they were a player made item, then maybe it would be excusable (but I still doubt that). But it's not anything but a seldom used thing that is easy to forget, and yet can utterly ruin the game for someone.


You lose your clone and need to upgrade it - I don't. There - I diminished your ressources whilst keeping mine. Sounds like PvP to me.

Quote:
There just has to be a limit to the harsh-ness of loss in a game before it simply becomes masochistic. Most people in Eve have no problem learning from a mistake- but having a toon literally un-learn months of training because of it? And not in under the guise of some kind of PvP function to boot?


Months of learning? You lost racial carrier V whilst being in a clone mapped for leadership and no remaps left or what?

Quote:
It's the truth- Eve's players complain that so few people want to PvP, but then staunchly defend every hurdle CCP has thrown at you to actually get out and do it! A crazy grind for JC's, a clone upgrade system that benefits no one, etc......


Clicking an upgrade button after you got podded - it's such a hurdle...

Quote:

Ditching the different level clones would have a zero net effect. It's just trimming the fat, really.


I agree on that one - there should be a generic clone that costs 20-40 mill for everyone. An auto-update option would be nice.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#128 - 2012-01-31 03:03:54 UTC
ok. can we agree to this?

the concept of losing SP on clone loss makes somewhat sense, however it does not scale as intended.

there is no good reason why a vet should loose more SP as a noob. SP has a time independent value. 1 day for a noob is as valuable as 1 day for a vet, right?

fixed SP loss for everyone? get rid of the 5% thingy?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#129 - 2012-01-31 03:09:52 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
ok. can we agree to this?

the concept of losing SP on clone loss makes somewhat sense, however it does not scale as intended.
Nah. The limits and selection criteria already ensures that there's an upper ceiling that you can hit for your SP loss and that once you become “more vet” than that, the scaling simply stops.

You might have a case for arguing that the clone costs scale a bit oddly, but the loss itself works just fine: invest a lot (in a single skill) and you risk a lot. You can choose not to, and you can choose to protect that investment.
Vampire PeterPan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2012-01-31 03:17:15 UTC
Macks Artilius wrote:
40 days? Ouch. Our corp sends emails periodically reminding us to update our clones... because it hurts so much when you forget.

Honestly though, it really should be possible to set it up so that you auto-buy a clone of the appropriate grade when you're podded; I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't want to buy a new clone as soon as I got podded, ever. At very least there should be a popup saying something like "Your clone contract has been reset, would you like to buy a new clone contract now Y/N?" to remind you.

IndeedAttention
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-01-31 03:24:46 UTC
I've been playing less than a year, and the very first thing I did when I started playing was to figure out what all the different pieces of the UI did. If you've been playing for around 2 years and you've never clicked on the Medical button one single time you've been docked, then you deserve what you get.
Ai Shun
#132 - 2012-01-31 04:26:34 UTC
Alaric Faelen wrote:
Laziness can cost you- but simply tossing in the loss of real time (and possibly months at that) has nothing to do with gameplay. You can be lazy watching local, D-Scan, fitting for PvP when in low/null, autopiloting, spamming approach/orbit, etc---and all those will cost you material losses.

But there is no higher game mechanic than clicking on an NPC menu box with clones. There is no actual benefit, only the most severe of punishments for failing to remember this one, not often used thing. No other player benefits from the loss either. I agreed with putting implants on KM's- again it's a material loss. Loss of SP is pointless at best.

I am just fundamentally opposed to losing SP. To me that represents real time of my life I've invested into what will always be just a game.
Much of that time was spent grinding boring content so I could get to the 'meat and potatoes' of Eve. Being set back to that point again? I just wouldn't do it. I already wrap up what is nearly a part time job worth of my life into this one game-- to have that all essentially wasted because I forget to click on a box before getting back out to fight??? That is beyond ridiculous.

It's just a totally extraneous game feature.


This may sound horrible, but it is not intended to be. If you consider playing a game to be a second job, then maybe that game is not for you. If you consider the mechanics of EVE Online too harsh, there are plenty of other, softer games out there.

But what you and a number of other pilots in this thread is suggesting is taking away a pilot's accountability.

That's not on. That's not EVE. And while it may be an obscure mechanic, using any of the tools that help with a richer EVE experience (Surely you run EVEMon or a similar skill planner?) will help you avoid this. It'll make you a better pilot.

And then, if like the OP you forget to update your clone THREE TIMES IN A ROW, well ****.

The stupid stick just crit you for 10,000 damage. I don't want CCP driven reminders. I don't want auto clones. Not because it is sensible, but because it represents the beginning of what I see as the end.

Seriously. It sounds melodramatic.

But if you can't ball up and take care of yourself, why should the game be adjusted to wipe your butt?