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How killboard efficiency encourages blobbing
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#1 - 2012-01-30 18:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
tl;dr:http://qkme.me/35ujlv

EDK, the most popular corp killboard (and the one being used on eve-kill.net) has this one feature called efficiency. It is a basic calculation of [kill_values / (kill_values+loss_values)], and gives a way of comparing every person, corporation, and alliance in PvP matters. This engenders competition, and everything that comes with it, good (competition itself, combat motivation, etc) and bad (elitism, "pro" PvPers, etc).

But what does it have to do with blobbing? A "blob" is a gang of PvPers who aim to achieve victory by relying on outnumbering their enemies, rather than relying on superior tactics, piloting skill, etc. However, while superior numbers is a good way to win fights in Eve, it provides extra benefits on the killboard in the event of a lost fight.

Suppose 10 Drakes attack 4 Typhoons. The Typhoons ultimately kill 3 of the Drakes (say, 150 mil ISK, 50 mil each), but lose one Typhoon (say, 110 mil ISK). What does it look like on the respective personal killboards?


  • Flew a Typhoon, did not die: +150 mil ISK for 2 pilots. Efficiency increase.
  • Flew a Drake, did not die: +110 mil ISK for 7 pilots. Efficiency increase.
  • Flew a Typhoon, died: +40 mil ISK for 1 pilot. Efficiency increase.
  • Flew a Drake, died: +60 mil ISK for 3 pilots. Efficiency increase.


I have highlighted the issue. The dead Typhoon, although he was more successful ISK-wise in the engagement, gains less in KB efficiency out of this than the dead Drakes. The multiple dead Drakes all gain in efficiency by the fact that their own ship loss is being compared to the one ship they killed collectively. From a brief glance at one of the Drakes' killboards and their efficiency, you might think that they sacrificed a Drake for a Typhoon kill -- which is wrong and gives the wrong impression.

I did not pick Drakes at random. The "Drake blob" is (in)famous for this sort of thing, for the very reason of the Drake being cheap enough that even if you do lose it (unlikely as it might be due to its massive tank) you will still usually come out in the positive.

Edit: Suppose another scenario: two Drakes fighting a solo Typhoon. One Drake dies, and the Typhoon dies. The killboards look as such:


  • Flew a Drake, did not die: +110 mil ISK for 1pilot. Efficiency increase.
  • Flew a Typhoon, died: -60 mil ISK for 1 pilot. Efficiency decrease.
  • Flew a Drake, died: +60 mil ISK for 1 pilot. Efficiency increase.


This is a reasonable small gang fight, and the Drake pilots are being duly rewarded. However, compare the highlighted numbers you see above to the numbers in the "blob" scenario I showed earlier. The net win is the same, while the chance of being killed in a blob is much smaller. From a KB perspective, what reason is there to not be in a blob?
(end edit)

The use of "efficiency" as a competitive metric for PvPers is thus unfairly penalizing those who prefer to fly solo, or in smaller-than-usual gangs. As throwing around numbers in Eve is never going to stop, and is going to continue to be what drives competitive PvP, is there a way to fix the efficiency metric to not disproportionately reward blobbing? And, if not, is there a better metric we could be using for measuring our ePeens?

Before anyone suggests it: KB "points" are not valid, as killing a Rifter with a Taranis gives the same amount of points as killing a Dramiel with a Taranis.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#2 - 2012-01-30 18:45:55 UTC
I think this is less of a KB problem and more an issue with culture.

While the ISK efficiency stat could be made to be less useless, it's still hardly a metric of anything meaningful. I think the EVE community just needs to stop being obsessive cunts about KB stats.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#3 - 2012-01-30 18:47:18 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
I think this is less of a KB problem and more an issue with culture.

While the ISK efficiency stat could be made to be less useless, it's still hardly a metric of anything meaningful. I think the EVE community just needs to stop being obsessive cunts about KB stats.

They are not going to, just as people in BF/CoD are not going to stop caring about KDR. Face reality and work within it.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#4 - 2012-01-30 18:50:18 UTC
Bads will be bads, but I don't think the culture necessarily has to be this pervasive.

Regardless, I wasn't suggesting it shouldn't be changed. It definitely should.
Klezmer
In Praise Of Shadows
#5 - 2012-01-30 18:51:24 UTC
Bads gonna bad. Even without a record people are going to be massive cowards that can't risk losing a ship without crying about it.

Killboards have other stats than k/d ratio and often prove exactly how risk averse people are.
Kell Tarhun
Neptunis
#6 - 2012-01-30 18:59:53 UTC
There is major issue in your thinking
There are kills and......kills.
Trying to compare guy who whore on 300 kills every battle vs solo pirate who kill on his own is like...to explain in short way....
There is pretty huge difference in a way of being killed.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#7 - 2012-01-30 19:03:37 UTC
Klezmer wrote:
Bads gonna bad. Even without a record people are going to be massive cowards that can't risk losing a ship without crying about it.

Killboards have other stats than k/d ratio and often prove exactly how risk averse people are.


While this is true, it requires looking into the corp history, looking at exactly how fights happened, and in general looking at more than the surface. It's unfortunate that someone who is unskilled and only flies cheap ships in blobs will have better efficiency than someone who knows how to fight much better, but flies in smaller gangs.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-01-30 19:07:29 UTC
I think KB currently are a terrible representative of killing stats. If I'm looking it it correctly, if there are 20 attackers on the killmail, then all 20 attackers get access to the full ISK efficiency of the loser. Even if one of the attackers did 0.05% damage
Klezmer
In Praise Of Shadows
#9 - 2012-01-30 19:07:32 UTC
It takes me about 30 seconds to assess if someone is a skilless blobber; that is when eve-kill is actually loading pages properly, which it hasn't for some time.

k/d ratio, number of people on kills, couple of battle reports. The high efficiency ratio that people seem to revere is often indication enough.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#10 - 2012-01-30 19:07:36 UTC
Kell Tarhun wrote:
There is major issue in your thinking
There are kills and......kills.
Trying to compare guy who ***** on 300 kills every battle vs solo pirate who kill on his own is like...to explain in short way....
There is pretty huge difference in a way of being killed.


There is, I don't disagree. But when you check out a person's kill record, the overall ISK efficiency is the first thing you see. It sort of sets a tone for the type of pilot that is. Also, if all you can afford time for is a quick check, that is all you will see.

I would propose a removal of efficiency numbers completely, if it weren't futile to cry for something like that. Instead, I am trying to think of something to replace efficiency... something that better represents the pilot behind the number.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Indeterminacy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-01-30 19:14:34 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
EDK, the most popular corp killboard (and the one being used on eve-kill.net) has this one feature called efficiency. It is a basic calculation of [kill_values / (kill_values+loss_values)], and gives a way of comparing every person, corporation, and alliance in PvP matters. This engenders competition, and everything that comes with it, good (competition itself, combat motivation, etc) and bad (elitism, "pro" PvPers, etc).

But what does it have to do with blobbing? A "blob" is a gang of PvPers who aim to achieve victory by relying on outnumbering their enemies, rather than relying on superior tactics, piloting skill, etc. However, while superior numbers is a good way to win fights in Eve, it provides extra benefits on the killboard in the event of a lost fight.

Suppose 10 Drakes attack 4 Typhoons. The Typhoons ultimately kill 3 of the Drakes (say, 150 mil ISK, 50 mil each), but lose one Typhoon (say, 110 mil ISK). What does it look like on the respective personal killboards?


  • Flew a Typhoon, did not die: +150 mil ISK for 2 pilots. Efficiency increase.
  • Flew a Drake, did not die: +110 mil ISK for 7 pilots. Efficiency increase.
  • Flew a Typhoon, died: +40 mil ISK for 1 pilot. Efficiency increase.
  • Flew a Drake, died: +60 mil ISK for 3 pilots. Efficiency increase.


I have highlighted the issue. The dead Typhoon, although he was more successful ISK-wise in the engagement, gains less in KB efficiency out of this than the dead Drakes. The multiple dead Drakes all gain in efficiency by the fact that their own ship loss is being compared to the one ship they killed collectively. From a brief glance at one of the Drakes' killboards and their efficiency, you might think that they sacrificed a Drake for a Typhoon kill -- which is wrong and gives the wrong impression.

I did not pick Drakes at random. The "Drake blob" is (in)famous for this sort of thing, for the very reason of the Drake being cheap enough that even if you do lose it (unlikely as it might be due to its massive tank) you will still usually come out in the positive.

Edit: Suppose another scenario: two Drakes fighting a solo Typhoon. One Drake dies, and the Typhoon dies. The killboards look as such:


  • Flew a Drake, did not die: +110 mil ISK for 1pilot. Efficiency increase.
  • Flew a Typhoon, died: -60 mil ISK for 1 pilot. Efficiency decrease.
  • Flew a Drake, died: +60 mil ISK for 1 pilot. Efficiency increase.


This is a reasonable small gang fight, and the Drake pilots are being duly rewarded. However, compare the highlighted numbers you see above to the numbers in the "blob" scenario I showed earlier. The net win is the same, while the chance of being killed in a blob is much smaller. From a KB perspective, what reason is there to not be in a blob?
(end edit)

The use of "efficiency" as a competitive metric for PvPers is thus unfairly penalizing those who prefer to fly solo, or in smaller-than-usual gangs. As throwing around numbers in Eve is never going to stop, and is going to continue to be what drives competitive PvP, is there a way to fix the efficiency metric to not disproportionately reward blobbing? And, if not, is there a better metric we could be using for measuring our ePeens?

Before anyone suggests it: KB "points" are not valid, as killing a Rifter with a Taranis gives the same amount of points as killing a Dramiel with a Taranis.


So, if we remove the efficiency stat goons will stop bringing 1k duders to save/take a moon (of which they have scores just like it)?
Liam Mirren
#12 - 2012-01-30 19:24:03 UTC
Generally, when assessing someone's KB stats I don't look for K:D (unless it's really out of whack), but rather I look at his lost fits to see if they make sense. Apart from that I try to gauge what happened and how it happened. The numbers themslves don't mean a whole lot, especially not when he's mostly in big fleets.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#13 - 2012-01-30 19:41:17 UTC
Indeterminacy wrote:

So, if we remove the efficiency stat goons will stop bringing 1k duders to save/take a moon (of which they have scores just like it)?


Bads will be bads. Some of them might be dissuaded from coming from the fact their efficiency won't be bumped up by an expensive tower kill, but in general no. There are other reasons for blobbing.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-01-30 19:43:54 UTC
Killboards should have a new stat- it should record as "Blob kills" any kill resulting from the victor's side outnumbering the enemy 2 to1 or greater.

.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-01-30 19:47:29 UTC
I wonder if something like this would work:

If 20 people shoot and hit a ship that is killed, the only ISK efficiency they get would be a % of the damage they did. For example, if a 1M ship is blown up and 1 attacker only did 10% damage, then he would only have access to 100K efficiency isk, not the full 100%
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#16 - 2012-01-30 19:54:10 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
I wonder if something like this would work:

If 20 people shoot and hit a ship that is killed, the only ISK efficiency they get would be a % of the damage they did. For example, if a 1M ship is blown up and 1 attacker only did 10% damage, then he would only have access to 100K efficiency isk, not the full 100%


If the damage on killmails actually worked, that would be one solution. However, killmail damage is often inaccurate/bugged. Also, a change like this would unfairly penalize tacklers/ewar support.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-01-30 19:57:53 UTC
I would say that if you care so much about KB statistics then you are playing EvE wrong. But hey...that is just me. I couldn't give two ***** over KB stats since they are hardly ever accurate anyway. Go out kill...have fun...go home. Lose a ship...buy another.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Yumi Sagara
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-01-30 19:58:44 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
I wonder if something like this would work:

If 20 people shoot and hit a ship that is killed, the only ISK efficiency they get would be a % of the damage they did. For example, if a 1M ship is blown up and 1 attacker only did 10% damage, then he would only have access to 100K efficiency isk, not the full 100%


If the damage on killmails actually worked, that would be one solution. However, killmail damage is often inaccurate/bugged. Also, a change like this would unfairly penalize tacklers/ewar support.


AND also start pushing for more ****** max alpha loadouts online so everyone can be the one to pop the most damage before it goes.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#19 - 2012-01-30 20:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I would say that if you care so much about KB statistics then you are playing EvE wrong. But hey...that is just me. I couldn't give two ***** over KB stats since they are hardly ever accurate anyway. Go out kill...have fun...go home. Lose a ship...buy another.

I don't care about them, but I am tired of hearing "oh God, those stats! Petrus, I thought you were better!"

If I had it my way, I would remove all non-dropped fittings and implants from killmails. Still gives you an API to confirm a story about an engagement, and removes most of the elitist fitting police and killmail efficiency crap, in addition to making Eve a "harsher" place since it would be harder to get intel on what sorts of ships someone flies. However, this isn't Petrus Online, so I'm trying to live with Eve as is, and thinking about improving out of game tools instead.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-01-30 20:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyris Nairn
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

The use of "efficiency" as a competitive metric for PvPers is thus unfairly penalizing those who prefer to fly solo, or in smaller-than-usual gangs. As throwing around numbers in Eve is never going to stop, and is going to continue to be what drives competitive PvP, is there a way to fix the efficiency metric to not disproportionately reward blobbing? And, if not, is there a better metric we could be using for measuring our ePeens?

The problem that I see in your standpoint is that you are presupposing that "competitive PVP" is synonymous with or has as one of its inseparable parts, "killboard efficiency". From my perspective this is not true at all.

From my perspective, Pandemic Legion and the Drone Region Federations have the biggest "ePeens" in EVE right now because they have huge supercapital fleets that they can drop at a moment's notice and steamroll overtop of everyone. This has nothing to do with their ability to "blob," since in many cases a handful of supercapital ships can utterly wipe the floor with a disproportionately large enemy "blob," being outnumbered by 10- or even 20-to one and emerging with minimal losses. In this case, if even a single supercapital dies both the side with the supercapital "blob" and the far-larger subcapital "blob" will have high killboard efficiency numbers; the supercapital blob because of the hundreds of ships destroyed during the fight, and the subcapital blob because of the ISK value of the single ship they killed in the process of losing their hundreds of ships.

Even if you were to have two "blob" fleets, or two small gangs, that each killed an equal number of ships, let's say a 200-on-200 or a 5-on-5 fight that resulted in 100% casualties on both sides of the fight, both sides would emerge with high killboard efficiency because killboard efficiency is not a zero-sum game. Let's say that I, as a pilot in the 5-on-5 fight, shot at least once at each of the 5 enemy ships that died, and let us assume that each ship that I "killed," by shooting a single shot at them, was worth 10 million ISK; resultingly, I have an "ISK Destroyed" or "ISK Damage" value for that fight of 50 million ISK; then, if I also die as a result of that fight, I have a 10 million ISK lost and a 5:1 Kill-to-Death ratio; but, what if all ten combatants do the same behavior? In this event, Side A has "lost" 50 billion ISK, cumulatively, but "destroyed" 250 ISK in damage, because each of their five pilots is on each of the five kill mails; accordingly, SIde B has the exact same statistic, and both sides can rightfully say that they "won the ISK war," or maintained an 80% efficiency against the enemy, despite the fact that both sides lost exactly 5 ships.

In short, killboard efficiency is nonsense. The only way to measure "competitive PVP" is to measure it on the metagame level in which you can observe the longevity of the organisations involved and the accomplishments of those groups; for example, Null Sec has a way to measure competitive PVP in the existence and perpetuation of Sovereignty claims, but this itself is muddled by the existence of inter-Alliance coalitions, shifting allegiances, and the fact that unless you're involved enough in the politics or care enough to investigate them from an outside perspective they mean nothing to you.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
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