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New player pays the price...
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#101 - 2012-01-29 21:38:34 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

In the past 2 minutes I have seen 49 pod mails pop up on eve-kill.net

Given we have had this for close to a decade I would say eve subs are not going to be hurt by this any time soon.


how about useful info like the age of those players, are they alpha clone new, several months, or 5 years old.
The isk sink of all those clones are apparently providing?
Now many of those lost sp?
Random arbitrary numbers prove or deny nothing.


Well if we say they are all 2 mil clones that would make 98 million just sucked out of the system in 2 min. If this keeps up then every hours its 2.9 billion and every day over 70 billion.

Now we know many pay much much more and the pod kill count can both go down or up but 70 billion a day will be far below the real isk cost per day. CCP might be able to get a more accurate number but this will have to do for now.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#102 - 2012-01-29 21:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
baltec1 wrote:
Well if we say they are all 2 mil clones that would make 98 million just sucked out of the system in 2 min. If this keeps up then every hours its 2.9 billion and every day over 70 billion.

Now we know many pay much much more and the pod kill count can both go down or up but 70 billion a day will be far below the real isk cost per day. CCP might be able to get a more accurate number but this will have to do for now.


No it wont. Can't say anything one way or another without real info. you're randomly saying all those people killed in 2 min are over 25m sp for your own argument. You also take those pods lost within that amount of time as the normal rate of loss. Scientific method, naw, testimonials are enough right?
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2012-01-29 21:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Pavel Bidermann wrote:
Just because something is sitting out there doesn't mean it been located or even understood. You assume too much. Also, most people have read up on the mechanics of EVE? First off who would that be since the channels in newb corps are full of nothing but basic questions like "how do I open a cargo container?"? Where is this vast datbase of written EVE lore you speak of? I call Shenanigans! there is no "even newbies know this" catagory in EVE. CCP clearly doesn't even know how EVE works so why should a new player know what they don't? Granted, a new player is at least trying to play EVE, so that's an advantage a dev doesn't have.



Learn to read.

"most people i've met" is not the same as "most people".
I'm glad about that, i probably picked out a few smart guys out there.

I KNOW that most people are just way too stupid for the simplest things in life.

I'm assuming stuff ? "CCP clearly doesn't even know how EVE works" ... aha...


Hey ... don't blame CCP for the lack of intelligence the players have.

If people aren't smart enough to do some basic research,
or aren't actually smart enough to be WILLING to do research,
there is NOTHING CCP can do, because they can't force people to learn how to the game works.

That said, i'll give you some advise, which you won't care about anyway.

Learn to read in context.
Stop projecting your **** onto others.
Don't make things up others haven't written.
Stop assuming **** you have no evidence of.

Being able to gather information by ones self is one of the most important things in life.
Being able to do that makes life much more interesting, much more comfortable,
much easier and makes people smarter.

Most people fail at that ... and fail at realizing the importance of knowing how to gather information,
how to abstract it, how to relate it to given data, etc. etc.

They just go "I'm right, you're wrong". Every ******* has an opinion based on the information he has got.
Logic makes everything seem "right", so most people believe they are actually "right" and don't care about
others who are *actually* right, because they don't realize the lack of information they have.

People don't want to be smart. We partly live in a brave, new world where people only care about fun.
Sad part about being stupid is that most people simply don't realize that they are in fact stupid
and "no one" can prove them otherwise. (There are exceptions, of course)

So, that said ... whatever people say about what CCP does ... it simply is not their fault.
They can't force people into being smart, they can't teach them that learning is essential,
they can only ignore the whining and bitching of all the idiots who simply lack self responsibility.

Self responsibility ? Yes.
Learn to gather information yourself, or admit that you're too stupid to do it.


Now draw your own conclusions.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#104 - 2012-01-29 21:56:29 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well if we say they are all 2 mil clones that would make 98 million just sucked out of the system in 2 min. If this keeps up then every hours its 2.9 billion and every day over 70 billion.

Now we know many pay much much more and the pod kill count can both go down or up but 70 billion a day will be far below the real isk cost per day. CCP might be able to get a more accurate number but this will have to do for now.


No it wont. Can't say anything one way or another without real info. you're randomly saying all those people killed in 2 hours are over 25m sp for your own argument. You also take those pods lost within that amount of time as the normal rate of loss. Scientific method, naw, testimonials are enough right?


I said 2 million not 25.

If anything I have gone UNDER the average

I have also been watching the mails come in and it is indeed around 50 per 2 min. Naturally this will go up if a large fight happens which with it being a sunday, is highly likely to happen.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#105 - 2012-01-29 22:00:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


I said 2 million not 25.


25.6m SP clone costs 1.9m
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#106 - 2012-01-29 22:05:31 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


I said 2 million not 25.


25.6m SP clone costs 1.9m


Ah I see.

Well that does seem like a good lowish average to go for so yea, Ill stand by my numbers.
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
#107 - 2012-01-29 23:15:53 UTC
Pavel Bidermann wrote:
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
Pavel Bidermann wrote:

Just because something is sitting out there doesn't mean it been located or even understood. You assume too much. Also, most people have read up on the mechanics of EVE? First off who would that be since the channels in newb corps are full of nothing but basic questions like "how do I open a cargo container?"? Where is this vast datbase of written EVE lore you speak of?

You have obviously never heard of Evelopedia which can be accessed by pressing the big button marked 'Evelopedia' at the top of this very page.

Try typing 'clones' in the searchbox and see what the results are.


Oh yes I have heard of that and actually tried to look around in that mess. Its so poorly done that it looks like something I would have put together. that "system" sucks bad enough that even CCP is trying to fix it (with hillarious results I'm sure!).

If you looked around then you would have seen the item on clones. I found an article on clones that mentions 'keeping your clone updated' in 10 seconds.

Just because you are too lazy to take a tiny amount of time to do minimal amount of research is not CCPs fault. You (you are the OP) lost SP because you were lazy. I'm guessing the reason you are trying to blame CCP and crying that 'people will unsub' is because you failed to get your lost SP back via a petition.

The only thing CCP could do to ensure people like you don't lose SP would be if they required people to take an IQ test before they allowed you to download the client and take your money.
Yaris San
#108 - 2012-01-29 23:47:16 UTC
Astro Jones wrote:
thanks, i know it's my mistake but the question still stands...why do you lose skill? i mean what's the point?


Because dying should have a cost.

"All this has happened before, and all this will happen again."

So say we all.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#109 - 2012-01-30 01:09:05 UTC
Yaris San wrote:

Because dying should have a cost.

Other than the ship,mods,implants,time invested aquiring the isk for those 3 and time it took to reach whatever destination it was that got you killed. Clone service is just another rolling marble in the EVE Rube Goldberg machine to look impressive.
If new clones were manufactured my the players themself. Then maybe some negative impact. Yet as it stands. Only those that have been around more than 2 years are actually giving anything to the sink. Unless you die every few hours.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#110 - 2012-01-30 01:13:16 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Yaris San wrote:

Because dying should have a cost.

Other than the ship,mods,implants,time invested aquiring the isk for those 3 and time it took to reach whatever destination it was that got you killed. Clone service is just another rolling marble in the EVE Rube Goldberg machine to look impressive.
If new clones were manufactured my the players themself. Then maybe some negative impact. Yet as it stands. Only those that have been around more than 2 years are actually giving anything to the sink. Unless you die every few hours.


The vast numbers of pods killed even at the lowest levels will add up.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#111 - 2012-01-30 01:14:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
Rico Minali wrote:
Astro Jones wrote:
thanks, i know it's my mistake but the question still stands...why do you lose skill? i mean what's the point?


It is because there needs to be consequence to losing. Unlike WOW and other MMOs Eve actively punishes you for failing, this is actually WHY alot of people play including me. I see no enjoyment in there being no risk to losing.

There are ample warnings that this will happen, and to be honest if you have been playing long enough to lose 40 days of training then there is no reason for you not to know. I hope that doesnt sound insulting, it is an obseravtion.

Most Eve players love Eve because it is harsh not in spite of it.



NO its in the fluff, your clone is a corps remade for your use, and not all human. Our brans DOWN LOAD DATA! And just like one your computer burns out if you try to use soft were on the drives on hard ware that can't handle it what happens?

And I guess true loss is kinda eves thing so YES too.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-01-30 01:23:10 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Pavel Bidermann wrote:
Just because something is sitting out there doesn't mean it been located or even understood. You assume too much. Also, most people have read up on the mechanics of EVE? First off who would that be since the channels in newb corps are full of nothing but basic questions like "how do I open a cargo container?"? Where is this vast datbase of written EVE lore you speak of? I call Shenanigans! there is no "even newbies know this" catagory in EVE. CCP clearly doesn't even know how EVE works so why should a new player know what they don't? Granted, a new player is at least trying to play EVE, so that's an advantage a dev doesn't have.



Learn to read.

"most people i've met" is not the same as "most people".
I'm glad about that, i probably picked out a few smart guys out there.

I KNOW that most people are just way too stupid for the simplest things in life.

I'm assuming stuff ? "CCP clearly doesn't even know how EVE works" ... aha...


Hey ... don't blame CCP for the lack of intelligence the players have.

If people aren't smart enough to do some basic research,
or aren't actually smart enough to be WILLING to do research,
there is NOTHING CCP can do, because they can't force people to learn how to the game works.

That said, i'll give you some advise, which you won't care about anyway.

Learn to read in context.
Stop projecting your **** onto others.
Don't make things up others haven't written.
Stop assuming **** you have no evidence of.

Being able to gather information by ones self is one of the most important things in life.
Being able to do that makes life much more interesting, much more comfortable,
much easier and makes people smarter.

Most people fail at that ... and fail at realizing the importance of knowing how to gather information,
how to abstract it, how to relate it to given data, etc. etc.

They just go "I'm right, you're wrong". Every ******* has an opinion based on the information he has got.
Logic makes everything seem "right", so most people believe they are actually "right" and don't care about
others who are *actually* right, because they don't realize the lack of information they have.

People don't want to be smart. We partly live in a brave, new world where people only care about fun.
Sad part about being stupid is that most people simply don't realize that they are in fact stupid
and "no one" can prove them otherwise. (There are exceptions, of course)

So, that said ... whatever people say about what CCP does ... it simply is not their fault.
They can't force people into being smart, they can't teach them that learning is essential,
they can only ignore the whining and bitching of all the idiots who simply lack self responsibility.

Self responsibility ? Yes.
Learn to gather information yourself, or admit that you're too stupid to do it.


Now draw your own conclusions.


never claimed to be smart. I also started the game with the tutorial. Ran into a dead end. Couldn't progress past it. didn't know who to ask or what to ask in order to get a useful answer. Got plenty of smack talk from *awesome* pilots though. In the end it turned out they weren't sure either.

You are looking at a poorly designed system relying on players being so much better than the designer that they are willing to dig around long enough to come up with the various nuggets of information. that is generally known as a failed system. I work with one of those Mon-Fri. you would be terrified to know the kind of systems those programs are used on. Smile

In a game environment, fun is a paramount goal. If you don't have that, you have a serious problem. EVE is not very fun.

Actually I love gathering intel. Between meta-game intel gathering and ingame scouting, I had some fun for about 1-1 1/2 years. Its a shame I've been here for 4 years or so.
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2012-01-30 01:24:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Yaris San wrote:

Because dying should have a cost.

Other than the ship,mods,implants,time invested aquiring the isk for those 3 and time it took to reach whatever destination it was that got you killed. Clone service is just another rolling marble in the EVE Rube Goldberg machine to look impressive.
If new clones were manufactured my the players themself. Then maybe some negative impact. Yet as it stands. Only those that have been around more than 2 years are actually giving anything to the sink. Unless you die every few hours.


The vast numbers of pods killed even at the lowest levels will add up.


I don't think you're taking all the suicide gankers, low skill scouts and cyno pilots into account. No isk required for those clones.
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#114 - 2012-01-30 01:27:43 UTC
Pavel Bidermann wrote:
In a game environment, fun is a paramount goal. If you don't have that, you have a serious problem. EVE is not very fun.

Actually I love gathering intel. Between meta-game intel gathering and ingame scouting, I had some fun for about 1-1 1/2 years. Its a shame I've been here for 4 years or so.



So you've been paying a subscription fee for 3 years for a game you do not find to be enjoyable?

I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#115 - 2012-01-30 01:30:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Clone costs are pretty much an anachronism from the early game when acquiring isk and SP was a lot harder and CCP couldn't imagine a clone hitting 100 mill SP and still being poor.

Learnings were removed, agent access requirements were lowered to the minimum per default whereas standing gains were maximised, risk-free 100 mill/h incursions for one-month olds were added...

Eve is the only venture I know that punishes you for being a long-time subscriber.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2012-01-30 01:34:34 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Clone costs are pretty much an anachronism from the early game when acquiring isk and SP was a lot harder and CCP couldn't imagine a clone hitting 100 mill SP and still being poor.

Learnings were removed, agent access requirements were lowered to the minimum per default whereas standing gains were maximised, risk-free 100 mill/h incursions for one-month olds were added...

Eve is the only venture I know that punishes you for being a long-time subscriber.



+1 for truthiness.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#117 - 2012-01-30 01:36:37 UTC
Astro Jones wrote:
Ok, i'll admit I have not played EVE that long and i'll admit it's my mistake but i feel it's a little harsh....I was pod killed twice and lost 40 days worth of training, i had no clue this could happen and I just wonder why you lose skill when your killed? I could see it happening to a red or a aggressor but in my case i feel it was quite harsh sense all i did was enter my first wormhole just to check it out...



Erm...keeping the Clone upgraded was probably the first thing I learned in tutorial IIRC.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#118 - 2012-01-30 01:45:24 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Astro Jones wrote:
Ok, i'll admit I have not played EVE that long and i'll admit it's my mistake but i feel it's a little harsh....I was pod killed twice and lost 40 days worth of training, i had no clue this could happen and I just wonder why you lose skill when your killed? I could see it happening to a red or a aggressor but in my case i feel it was quite harsh sense all i did was enter my first wormhole just to check it out...



Erm...keeping the Clone upgraded was probably the first thing I learned in tutorial IIRC.


+1

I figured this out about a week in by just assuming that if you died with a clone that had a lower skill point count that what you had currently you'd wake up with the max points your current clone had.

Just try and poke around with the interface. You'd be amazed what you can figure out without any guide telling you.

I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
Astro Jones
AJ Corp
#119 - 2012-01-30 02:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Astro Jones
The more I read this post the more this bother's me...I believe this is a 100% fail on the dev's part....ok I got killed, I lost my ships, I lost my augmentations, I totally wasted my time trying...The fact that I lost 40 days of training is just wrong and way to harsh for anyone...If anything clone cost should be a automatic thing.

I know some people feel everyone should suffer but this cost is just to high to pay as a gamer...I pay my monthly fee and a part of that is getting better at the game...really this is pathetic...im starting to think this is why EVE is such a tiny game compared to other on-line games.
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-01-30 02:17:30 UTC
Valentyn3 wrote:
Pavel Bidermann wrote:
In a game environment, fun is a paramount goal. If you don't have that, you have a serious problem. EVE is not very fun.

Actually I love gathering intel. Between meta-game intel gathering and ingame scouting, I had some fun for about 1-1 1/2 years. Its a shame I've been here for 4 years or so.



So you've been paying a subscription fee for 3 years for a game you do not find to be enjoyable?


Nope, but the first part of the answer will make part of your souls die.

I was a solo miner/industrialist for about 2 years. I eventually went with 2 accounts and stayed that way through the present. I'm currently maintaining 10 accounts, but that's a temporary thing. Like I said, in two weeks, I'm done.

I was in low sec for a bit with a corp and that was okay. later went to null sec and got into some PVPing. I can't for the life of me see why anyone would do that to themselves. That was the most boring thing I have ever seen in a game! It made mining veldspar look like NASCAR racing. Tried low sec again but by this time the riots started and I went in for that. I really think the community broke there. Divisions were drawn and we never got back to being a community.

Left my alliance and returned to high sec for some casual game time but the ganking was severe and not worth the effort. Hard to turn a profit that way. These days everybody seems to be ready to destroy the sandbox and i'm out of patience for waiting around. I thinkI undocked last in November or December. It was brief and pointless so i docked up again and cancelled subs.

Nothing but bitter now and sad to see whee this game has gone this year.