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Fixing the The Loop hole in NPC corps.
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Mirima Thurander
#41 - 2011-09-17 23:52:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The other issues, of trivialization of nullsec logistics and degrading of highsec wardec integrity via NPC alts are secondary, but also significantly bad for eve.
Nullsec logistics happens in nullsec, where killing people is easy no matter what corp they're in, so NPC corps are not even a factor. They might be a problem in highsec, but meh… gank them. That's why it's allowed (and at any rate, moving people out of NPC corps wouldn't really solve anything anyway). As for the degradation of “wardec integrity”… ehm… what? How?[/quote]

WRONG


Most items used in null are bout in high sec and MOVED to null for use in wars with the use of haulers inside of NPC
Corps.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Mirima Thurander
#42 - 2011-09-17 23:57:19 UTC
Eliniale wrote:




Its not the miners or the mission runners, its the use of people that abuses the hole that is NPC corps to have a easy way to mask there corps asset's there moving threw high sec, so am i to just start ganking EVERY hauler i see entering jita that's in a NPC corp to make sure that i get all there haulers of possibly the 1 corp i want to shoot at? I don't think that's an effective way and im sure the normal traders in jita don't want that ether.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Mirima Thurander
#43 - 2011-09-18 00:05:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:

And anyway, as mentioned, you'd be forced to gank people anyway since you wouldn't have any way of knowing (in time) who does what, where, for whom, and by the time you got your wardec in, it would be too late to have any effect whatsoever.



No most people that are forced in to the ganking people role because we cant wardec them know who's working for this corp and who's a normal trader.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Mirima Thurander
#44 - 2011-09-18 00:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirima Thurander
Tippia wrote:
irrelevant posts about isks sinks and no knowledge of how people operate in null corps




That's allot of my posts one right after the other BUT my phone [phails terribad] so i had to letter limitations and things...idk..

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2011-09-18 00:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mirima Thurander wrote:
This in your argument and it is not a valid one for keeping a broken part of the game broken.
What's broken about it?
Quote:
Most items used in null are bout in high sec and MOVED to null for use in wars with the use of haulers inside of NPC Corps.
…and as mentioned: so gank them. What's the problem?
Quote:
its the use of people that abuses the hole that is NPC corps to have a easy way to mask there corps asset's there moving threw high sec
…and guess what? Removing NPC corps won't solve that (supposed) problem.
Quote:
No most people that are forced in to the ganking people role because we cant wardec them know who's working for this corp and who's a normal trader.
…which doesn't help you since you can't keep up the wardecs to go after the latest corp that''s being used. By the time you're allowed to shoot the party in question, the people doing the hauling won't be there any more and/or they won't be the ones doing the hauling. So to get your target, you still have to gank them.

Oh, and you do realise that you just invalidated your previous point, don't you. The supposed problem that NPC corps are used to mask assets is not a problem according to you. That's good to know. So what is the problem again? What are you trying to solve here, really?
Mirima Thurander wrote:
I can't follow an arugment.
You see, it's not irrelevant to talk about ISK sinks when an argument is made that the problem is the influx of ISK, especially if the follow-up to said argument is that more ISK should flow into the game.

Btw, did you know that you don't need to post fifty times in a row to answer different posts?
B17332
Single Barrel Securities Trust
#46 - 2011-09-18 00:22:57 UTC
If you go with the free agent idea, that still doesn't guarantee the hauler will be in the corp you're war deccing. If you know the hauler then you could dec the free agent, but you have a limited number of war dec slots. If a corp has a dozen of free agent haulers you won't get anything anyway due to the free agent hauler seeing the eminent war dec and then route stuff through a different agent.

As for isk sinks, the npc corp tax is an isk sink while the pc corp tax is an isk dispersal. If you force all of the mission runners into a free agent status and have to dec each one then, again you're going to run out of slots while the majority of the mission runners continue their business with no isk sink except for munitions. If you do dec the free agent then they will see the dec coming and take appropriate action.

The issue I've seen is with neutral repping and orca services. The solution is simple. If a target you're shooting at is hit by a remote repper then the remote repper becomes red to you. If the target uses orca services, the orca pilot becomes red.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2011-09-18 00:33:36 UTC
B17332 wrote:
The issue I've seen is with neutral repping and orca services. The solution is simple. If a target you're shooting at is hit by a remote repper then the remote repper becomes red to you. If the target uses orca services, the orca pilot becomes red.
Remote reppers already go red, and the only real issue with Orcas was addressed in the last patch.
Mirima Thurander
#48 - 2011-09-18 00:37:28 UTC
Your still Fighting about the just gank them, yes we could just gank them.


But the big glaring problem is WHY should we have to gank someone.

The only reason we have to gank them is because there using a NPC corp to avoid the war dec you have all ready placed on there main corp.


So what you are really saying its OK for someone (Goon/Russians) to use a NPC corp to try and hide there haulers from someone thats clearly all ready wardeced there main corp. I see that as abusing a buggy Game mechanic.



I clearly see you don't like my idea, but so far you have not told me a way to fix it.

So in till you make a post telling me a way to stop this behavior that's any better than my idea any argument you have is void.


All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Mirima Thurander
#49 - 2011-09-18 00:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirima Thurander
Tippia wrote:
Remote reppers already go red, and the only real issue with Orcas was addressed in the last patch.


No they don't, this was changed to stop people abusing it in incursions.



B17332 wrote:
If you go with the free agent idea, that still doesn't guarantee the hauler will be in the corp you're war deccing. If you know the hauler then you could dec the free agent, but you have a limited number of war dec slots. If a corp has a dozen of free agent haulers you won't get anything anyway due to the free agent hauler seeing the eminent war dec and then route stuff through a different agent.

As for isk sinks, the npc corp tax is an isk sink while the pc corp tax is an isk dispersal. If you force all of the mission runners into a free agent status and have to dec each one then, again you're going to run out of slots while the majority of the mission runners continue their business with no isk sink except for munitions. If you do dec the free agent then they will see the dec coming and take appropriate action.

The issue I've seen is with neutral repping and orca services. The solution is simple. If a target you're shooting at is hit by a remote repper then the remote repper becomes red to you. If the target uses orca services, the orca pilot becomes red.



You would have to shorten the activation time on free agent war decs, and add more wardec slots for free agents.


You could still tax free agents the same amount NPC corps do now you can code this in the game at the same time your adding the free agent role.

This problem could be fixed in many ways, but all of them involve the removal of being wardec immune by using NPC corps and so far that's what i have seen him/her/them so up in arms about, there dead set on NOT becoming wardecable.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
B17332
Single Barrel Securities Trust
#50 - 2011-09-18 00:40:04 UTC
The ability to take a more direct action against some player who is under cutting you does not mean that he will stop undercutting you. Also the guy who is under cutting you one minute might get under cut by another guy a minute later. If you are talking about all of the under cutting done at major market hubs, most of them are alts and never undock. Forcing these people out of the npc corps will not make them suddenly sell their products for more and there are enough people in high sec that if you shut down a drake producer for a week, someone else will quite happily step in.

For dealing with mining bots, sure, being able to war dec the play would be nice. Although I think there is something in the EULA about targeting specific players.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#51 - 2011-09-18 00:47:21 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
No they don't, this was changed to stop people abusing it in incursions.
Yes they do. What was changed with Incursion was that reppers automatically turn off if their target gets a GCC. Repping a target with aggression still transfers the aggression.
Quote:
But the big glaring problem is WHY should we have to gank someone.
Why is it a problem?
Quote:
I clearly see you don't like my idea, but so far you have not told me a way to fix it.
…for a very simple reason: you haven't really shown that anything needs to be fixed.
Quote:
So in till you make a post telling me a way to stop this behavior that's any better than my idea any argument you have is void.
First of all, why does it need to be stopped? Second of all, no, that does not void any argument — logic doesn't work that way. Your problem (beyond not having a clearly defined problem) is that your solutions don't address the issue. Just because no-one offers a better solution doesn't mean that your suggestion suddenly starts to work.

So, again: what is the problem here? What are you trying to solve?
Mirima Thurander
#52 - 2011-09-18 00:52:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirima Thurander
Tippia wrote:


So, again: what is the problem here? What are you trying to solve?





i think it should work like this


only be allowed inside of a noob corp for a total of 30 days played time( that's time logged in, after 15 days your given a notice ether join a player corp or your getting drafted into the FW corps.

2 problems solved with 1 idea FW and neutral haulers/reps

Tippia wrote:


What is the problem here? What are you trying to solve?


neutral haulers/reps


Tippia wrote:


What are you trying to solve?


neutral haulers/reps

Tippia wrote:


What is the problem here?


neutral haulers/reps



The problem is the fact you have to gank people that are abusing a loop hole in NPC corps.

Why should i have to gank them, there the ones abusing loop holes in NPC corps to avoid wardecs placed on there main corps/alt corps.





My challenge to you find a way not involving ganking said haulers/reps that fixes this problem that i outlined above.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2011-09-18 00:55:22 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
neutral haulers/reps
Why are neutral haulers a problem?
Why do you need to fiddle with NPC corps to solve it?

And neutral reps are already killable, so why are they a problem?
And why do you need to fiddle with NPC corps to solve this problem?
Mirima Thurander
#54 - 2011-09-18 01:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirima Thurander
Tippia wrote:

And neutral reps are already killable, so why are they a problem?


Go find you someone to test this with.
Go get you a frig get someone to aggression you get a reper to rep them, shoot said reper and if you dont get concored im wrong.

1 - they cannot be in your corp

2 - you have to prove they had no prior aggression towards you.

3 - in can not be done in null/lowsec

BUT don't you come back and say you can shoot neutral reps till you have a video PROVING that you can shoot a reper thats reping a person your fighting.

If i'm wrong i will retract my statement on fixing neutral repers, but it still leaves neutral haulers.



Tippia wrote:

And why do you need to fiddle with NPC corps to solve this problem?



So i can wardec them to shoot them down to cripple there resupply, WITH OUT ganking them.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#55 - 2011-09-18 01:23:37 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Go get you a frig get someone to aggression you get a reper to rep them, shoot said reper and if you dont get concored im wrong.
You're wrong.

Also, the fact that you are this unfamiliar with the game mechanics kind of puts a damper on your whole complaint… You really aren't in a position to ask for changes to mechanics if you don't know anything about them.
Quote:
So i can wardec them to shoot them down to cripple there resupply, WITH OUT ganking them.
But here's the problem: you keep assuming that these “neutral” reps/haulers are NPC players, and the problem is to remove NPC corps, when the fact of the matter is that the “neutral” part is what's bothering you. So “fixing” NPC corps doesn't solve anything. That is why I kept asking how/why NPC corps were a problem: because what you're going after has nothing to do with NPC corps, and as a result, going after NPC corps isn't the right way to do it — it doesn't address the actual problem (you think) you're having.

Moving people into PC or FW corps solves nothing for the simple reason that you will not be able to wardec them. There will be too many of them. You will still have to rely on the aggression timers to kill the reppers, or on ganks to kill the haulers, because the people you want to kill will simply always be in a corp that you can't attack. So nothing changes.

Moreover, as mentioned, the repper problem (as you present it) doesn't even exist — the solution is already in the game. The hauler problem doesn't exist either — it is actually a solution, not a problem. It is also a direct effect of it being a multiplayer game where we can request the aid of other parties. There is no fix to this for the simple reason that there should be no fix to it. It is the game working as intended. Instead, what you want isn't a fix — you want a counter-tactic. But here's the thing: there is a perfectly working method to achieve what you want to achieve, and the real problem here is that you don't want to employ it…

So your suggestion boils down to killing a perfectly legitimate way of playing the game by applying a change in the hopes of fixing two issues that do not need to be fixed, and which the change fails to address anyway. All of this because you don't want to use the tools and tactics already available to you. This makes it a bad idea.
Mirima Thurander
#56 - 2011-09-18 01:39:38 UTC
all i see is text


PROVE ME WRONG

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#57 - 2011-09-18 01:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mirima Thurander wrote:
PROVE ME WRONG
You're wrong by default, and if you knew what you were talking about, you would know this, as well as the changes done in Incursions and the actual issue with reps already. The fact that you don't casts doubt on all of your claims.

Next time, educate yourself before demanding fixes (that already exist) to problems (that don't exist).
Mirima Thurander
#58 - 2011-09-18 03:29:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
PROVE ME WRONG
You're wrong by default, and if you knew what you were talking about, you would know this, as well as the changes done in Incursions and the actual issue with reps already. The fact that you don't casts doubt on all of your claims.

Next time, educate yourself before demanding fixes (that already exist) to problems (that don't exist).




After going out and testing the reping mechanics i admit defeat.


Aiding is when a player activates a beneficial module on another player (activating aiding modules or commanding drones that have aiding purposes) That will cause the aiding player to inherit any flag (aggression or criminal) that the player being aided has. eg if the a player activates a remote armor rep on a player with an aggression flag, the aiding player will also get the aggression flag.


is correct.




BUT, fix my haulers problem, with out ganking them...

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-09-18 13:59:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianail Deninard
I am adamantly against this. There is NO reason to force PVP on anyone. There is nothing wrong with being a law abiding citizen that refuses to comit murder for a living.

Although if a pilot in an NPC corp reps a person in combat, the person fighting the one they aided (and their fleet) should get full agression rights on the one giving the aid. This should be a normal 15 minute window, not kill rights.

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Mirima Thurander
#60 - 2011-09-18 15:46:34 UTC
Lianail Deninard wrote:
I am adamantly against this. There is NO reason to force PVP on anyone. There is nothing wrong with being a law abiding citizen that refuses to comit murder for a living.

Although if a pilot in an NPC corp reps a person in combat, the person fighting the one they aided (and their fleet) should get full agression rights on the one giving the aid. This should be a normal 15 minute window, not kill rights.



That's how it works, i was wrong on that seeing how i had to tested it after they messed with it for incursions.



But i still have the problem With people knowingly abusing NPC corps to haul stuff for there all ready wardeced corp,
and the only way we have to deal with it is to use a fleet of BS to gank 1 afk frighter.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.