These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why is PVP boring?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#101 - 2012-01-28 21:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: 2bhammered
I think I could even argue that all accomplishments in WoW have more meaning and gratification and rewards than anything eve offers even when it comes to PVP. Leveling in this game is something a monkey can do, earning lots of ISK is easier than lots of gold timewise etc. Gear is better with again, more rewarding than any gear in eve offers, arena ranking takes more skill and gives more gratification + less invested time than any form of eve PVP has to offer (with possibleexception of once a year event of alliance tournament but I argue that even here WoW arena beats EVE.) Eve beats WOW in world pvp I guess, and ehm, more business savy people in eve than in wow and mining in eve can be done while being AFK...

Also in EVE one can become a master thief/scammer/scumbag and be hated more than anyone in WoW.
Skywalker
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#102 - 2012-01-28 21:55:54 UTC
It's not boring...

The catch is better then the prey
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#103 - 2012-01-28 22:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Marlona Sky wrote:
Remove local. Embrace the unknown.


Yup. Have fun scanning... every ...f-cking ...system ...all the time. You won't be playing EVE anymore, you'll be playing Scan Probe online. Miners will have an advantage because all they need is to post cloaky scouts on the gates - so they will see you coming long before you even know they're there. PVP will be restricted to station and gate camping only. That what you want?
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#104 - 2012-01-28 22:06:06 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Remove local. Embrace the unknown.


Yup. Have fun scanning... every ...f-cking ...system ...all the time. You won't be playing EVE anymore, you'll be playing Scan Probe online. Miners will have an advantage because all they need is to post cloaky scouts on the gates - so they will see you coming long before you even know they there. PVP will be restricted to station and gate camping only. That what you want?


remove cloaks solves both those problems.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#105 - 2012-01-28 22:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
2bhammered wrote:


remove cloaks solves both those problems.


Dream on. There are entire ship classes designed around the ability to cloak. While the cloak might be modified somewhat according to the CSM notes to deal with the ever-present AFK cloakers, cloaks are here to stay.

Edit: Also even if cloaks were gotten rid of, there's nothing stopping me from posting a trial account alt in a rookie ship on the gate. When the alt gets pwned, the miners log off. So removing local is still a silly idea that won't help increase PVP at all. Quite the opposite since now instead of running away from each other, people just won't be able to find each other.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#106 - 2012-01-28 22:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
2bhammered wrote:

So solving it would be to find a reason as to why fight in small gangs? we also need a reason as to why not always avoid a fight we know we wont win before it begins, we also need to make the actual mechanics of space ship combat more fun and action filled, even if one needs strategy,but CS:S has TONS of strategy so does sc2 etc and moba games yet gameplay mechanics are more fun and action filled than this so... thinking wait and trans speeds=strategy is stupid while pressing f1, f2 and f3, hmm use to be more buttons but now passive tanking rule so meh.


I think small scale pvp has great mechanics and involves quite some strategy - admittedly, when being the FC even blobs have. I've always viewed Eve as a space RTS like Homeworld, yet everyone only plays as many units as his multiboxing abilities allow. Maybe that's why I wonder why people are aimlessly sending expensive 'units' around without any objective.

Quote:
Also because fights are so ****** and balance outof wack and everything else, KM/KB has less meaning and incentive than a CS:S clan match ever will. When I and many bought the game years ago we were under theimpression that it was the opposite, we wanted more meaning and emotional investment into a game than FPS games offered and for several reasons I have come to the conclusion that BoB's or mine (ascn) or goons or RA or whatever alliances accomplishments mattered less than my CS:S team and it costed more both in money and time investment than that I put into CS:S.


It depends on how much things matter to you - back in the days, I used to play Quakeworld and I would get totally pumped for clan matches. Then I became to old and slow, didn't enjoy the slower FPS, graduated, got a job ending up with less spare-time and started playing eve for the afk training and 'meaningful deaths' . To this day, I must admit that no single game got my adrenaline pumping as Eve has.
I also must admit that when I was in CH until about 3-4 years ago, there were times I was totally addicted to killmails and I would go to work completely deprived of sleep because I just had to get kills the night before. Eventually I took a break and then I came back and started to ask 'why?'
I keep joining alliances from time to time, but always end up with the fact that pvp either involves a blob (which I hate) or serves no purpose but PvP itself. You're obviously a tad more of a bittervet than I am in regards to the fact that I would still enjoy small gang pvp mechanics - I only have issues with the fact that there's no single strategic goal for it.

Quote:

So what would think change by your gameplay mechanic on the scale of all of eve and how do you change the other stuff or deal with the implications? I would start by removing capital ships perhaps.



As I said - all Eve needs is goals for small gangs - stealing stuff from others is so much fun and whilst eve promotes that on a metagaming level, the ingame mechanics to steal anything of value without infiltrating an alliance are rather limited (meh - canflipping). Think of something akin to viking raids into enemy territory. I don't think eve needs much more as a first step. Alliances would depend on keeping their space populated or they would get robbed blind and vanish.

The only other problem is the fact that whilst Eve doesn't promote bigger=better (which is good), it heavily promotes bigger numbers=better. There should be a few advantages of fielding less people, like e.g. better mobility.

Of course a bigger number of comparable ships should beat fewer when it comes to an actual fight, but there should be a tactical advantage of bringing fewer ships too. However, that's hard to accomplish in a manner that doesn't get exploited - longer lock time with increasing number of hostile locks, stacking penalities on RR and DPS, spool timers on gates, speed penalties for bigger fleets etc... - I've read them all, but pretty much all of them are easily evaded or exploited.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Weiland Taur
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#107 - 2012-01-28 22:23:01 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
[quote=2bhammered]

remove cloaks solves both those problems.


Outside of WH's cloaks aren't that big of a deal. In Sov space as soon a cloaky comes in everyone is aware of it and acts accordingly. I can't remember a time we stopped doing what we were doing because we had a peeping tom. The effect of the AFK cloaker is greatly exaggerated. I imagine it's more fun for the closet roleplayers who sit giggling thinking they have pos'd up everyone and now only need to stare intently to make us log off and wander over to World of Tanks.

Per pvp, I think it would be great if you could target specific modules/areas of a ship and if their was more of a chance of returning from a fight crippled but still in the same hull. Many times the undock, shoot, blow up, reship cycle makes the entire thing seem to lack a certain, purpose other than keeping the waters of that specific ISK sink flowing. That might be a bit romantic however and not practicable in a game play sense.
met worst
Doomheim
#108 - 2012-01-28 22:29:59 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Remove local. Embrace the unknown.


Yup. Have fun scanning... every ...f-cking ...system ...all the time. You won't be playing EVE anymore, you'll be playing Scan Probe online. Miners will have an advantage because all they need is to post cloaky scouts on the gates - so they will see you coming long before you even know they're there. PVP will be restricted to station and gate camping only. That what you want?

Remove local but give me a specialised ship with sweep radar that gives me range, bearing and azimuth to n au. Maybe even throw in a nice audible ping (only heard with an installed mod on a specialised ship) for the residents and they can hunt each other down.

Options:
Anoms/Sigs/Belts distort the ping so you can't hear it. (kills off bots - even if they heard it, can a botscript detect sound?)
Station mod detects ping and broadcasts audible sig to all blue.
Range needs to improve to affect a stronger signal to get a lock.
On lock, throw in a bubble probe that hones in on target and deploys on contact.

I could go on. I'm getting excited just thinkin' about it.

Gotta be better than docking/logging/safeing as soon as local wobbles a bit.
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#109 - 2012-01-28 22:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: 2bhammered
Weiland Taur wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
[quote=2bhammered]

remove cloaks solves both those problems.


Outside of WH's cloaks aren't that big of a deal. In Sov space as soon a cloaky comes in everyone is aware of it and acts accordingly. I can't remember a time we stopped doing what we were doing because we had a peeping tom. The effect of the AFK cloaker is greatly exaggerated. I imagine it's more fun for the closet roleplayers who sit giggling thinking they have pos'd up everyone and now only need to stare intently to make us log off and wander over to World of Tanks.

Per pvp, I think it would be great if you could target specific modules/areas of a ship and if their was more of a chance of returning from a fight crippled but still in the same hull. Many times the undock, shoot, blow up, reship cycle makes the entire thing seem to lack a certain, purpose other than keeping the waters of that specific ISK sink flowing. That might be a bit romantic however and not practicable in a game play sense.


I answered to cloaked scouts, as in defending/scouting gates not offensive or afk stealthers.

I do agree that specific targeting might be nice, but I rather go more simplistic for finding fun than go more complicated that CCP has over the last 5-6 years making the game less fun to me. What is needed to be found is a goodsimple core element that makes this game fun to begin with, then perhaps add depth?!
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#110 - 2012-01-28 22:44:17 UTC
2bhammered wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Remove local. Embrace the unknown.


Yup. Have fun scanning... every ...f-cking ...system ...all the time. You won't be playing EVE anymore, you'll be playing Scan Probe online. Miners will have an advantage because all they need is to post cloaky scouts on the gates - so they will see you coming long before you even know they there. PVP will be restricted to station and gate camping only. That what you want?


remove fixed system-entry/exit-points solves both those problems.


Fixed.

Ni.
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#111 - 2012-01-28 23:01:18 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
2bhammered wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Remove local. Embrace the unknown.


Yup. Have fun scanning... every ...f-cking ...system ...all the time. You won't be playing EVE anymore, you'll be playing Scan Probe online. Miners will have an advantage because all they need is to post cloaky scouts on the gates - so they will see you coming long before you even know they there. PVP will be restricted to station and gate camping only. That what you want?


remove fixed system-entry/exit-points solves both those problems.


Fixed.


I like it Attention
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#112 - 2012-01-28 23:44:53 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Remove local. Embrace the unknown.


Yup. Have fun scanning... every ...f-cking ...system ...all the time. You won't be playing EVE anymore, you'll be playing Scan Probe online. Miners will have an advantage because all they need is to post cloaky scouts on the gates - so they will see you coming long before you even know they're there. PVP will be restricted to station and gate camping only. That what you want?


Which is why the scanner needs a total and complete overhaul at the same time. I have mentioned this what feels like, one thousand ******* times.

Something still tells me you will ***** anyways without having your instant intel so you can be safe 100% of the time regardless. It is pathetic scum like you that keeps this game stagnant and boring. X
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#113 - 2012-01-28 23:57:17 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:


Something still tells me you will ***** anyways without having your instant intel so you can be safe 100% of the time regardless.


Er, I invite you to look me up on killboards if you think I like being safe all the time.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#114 - 2012-01-29 01:03:32 UTC
met worst wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Remove local. Embrace the unknown.


Yup. Have fun scanning... every ...f-cking ...system ...all the time. You won't be playing EVE anymore, you'll be playing Scan Probe online. Miners will have an advantage because all they need is to post cloaky scouts on the gates - so they will see you coming long before you even know they're there. PVP will be restricted to station and gate camping only. That what you want?

Remove local but give me a specialised ship with sweep radar that gives me range, bearing and azimuth to n au. Maybe even throw in a nice audible ping (only heard with an installed mod on a specialised ship) for the residents and they can hunt each other down.

Options:
Anoms/Sigs/Belts distort the ping so you can't hear it. (kills off bots - even if they heard it, can a botscript detect sound?)
Station mod detects ping and broadcasts audible sig to all blue.
Range needs to improve to affect a stronger signal to get a lock.
On lock, throw in a bubble probe that hones in on target and deploys on contact.

I could go on. I'm getting excited just thinkin' about it.

Gotta be better than docking/logging/safeing as soon as local wobbles a bit.


So local-level intel, but only for the invaders?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Teowulff Odinson
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2012-01-29 01:07:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Teowulff Odinson
Large Collidable Object wrote:

The problem is there is nothing else to gain but a killmail in small scale warfare.

I made a thread a few months ago where I asked people if they could come up with a single reason to go on a small scale roam other than fun and killmails - the thread ended up with 2 pages of replies and each one consisted of people who didn't even read the topics header and said 'because it's fun'.

There need to be Objectives such as raidable moon-mining arrays which would also end the giant AFK-Empires that batphone each other once in a year to form a blob should their sov be threatened.

I completely agree. I also proposed things like stealing from moon goo harvesters, attacking empty stations, the option to make hidden bases in nulsec. Perhaps even small areas of pirate faction controlled lowsec with neutral stations in between where you can have small trade hubs where people can sell stolen goods from raids and buy new ships and ammo if necessary. So you don't have to travel all the way back to highsec without cyno alts and jump drives.

That would make it a lot more exciting and give small gangs and even solo pilots and incentive/ reason to go to nulsec.
A little more space for real pirates among the suburban gang like nullbear alliances.
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#116 - 2012-01-29 21:58:15 UTC
Teowulff Odinson wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:

The problem is there is nothing else to gain but a killmail in small scale warfare.

I made a thread a few months ago where I asked people if they could come up with a single reason to go on a small scale roam other than fun and killmails - the thread ended up with 2 pages of replies and each one consisted of people who didn't even read the topics header and said 'because it's fun'.

There need to be Objectives such as raidable moon-mining arrays which would also end the giant AFK-Empires that batphone each other once in a year to form a blob should their sov be threatened.

I completely agree. I also proposed things like stealing from moon goo harvesters, attacking empty stations, the option to make hidden bases in nulsec. Perhaps even small areas of pirate faction controlled lowsec with neutral stations in between where you can have small trade hubs where people can sell stolen goods from raids and buy new ships and ammo if necessary. So you don't have to travel all the way back to highsec without cyno alts and jump drives.

That would make it a lot more exciting and give small gangs and even solo pilots and incentive/ reason to go to nulsec.
A little more space for real pirates among the suburban gang like nullbear alliances.



Those are good ideas.

So true about the batphoneLol
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-01-30 04:01:24 UTC
Actually PvP is really boring in EVE. Sure, theres a brief moment where it seems okay, but its boring overall. the mechanics are okay, when they're actually working. Null is just crap because of how the players use it tbh.

I had more fun running gate camps in high and low sec than I did in null. Not much really going on in null. I don't know what happened.

I think the community broke during the summer of rage. Several people brought that up at the time and there was concern that it wouldn't heal. it doesn't seem to be getting better. Not at all. Sad really since it was a very active community at the time. Its all divided and entrenched now.

Maybe the PvP is still the same but the game itself isn't fun anymore. It was debatably fun before so there wasn't a lot of wiggle room to begin with.
NaturalBeast
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2012-01-30 04:05:56 UTC
Because hitting F1 sucks?
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#119 - 2012-01-30 07:47:42 UTC
I don't find PvP boring at all, or at least I don't find fleet PvP boring.

It has a large part to do with who I'm flying with -- my corp and I tend to exchange jokes and stories when we're not actively flying from place-to-place. Also, waiting for someone to fly in and shoot at us can be tedious, but it's always balanced by the adrenaline rush I get as I see my shield meter creep upward when I finally engage.

I find solo PvP boring, simply because I have nobody to talk to and it's entirely likely that I'll get my head handed to me. At least in a fleet, my friends sympathize with the loss most of the time.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Zytani
The Motley Crew Reborn
#120 - 2012-01-30 16:02:18 UTC
i think sansha should be a playable race.... imagine the fun one could have if incursions were players vs other players rather than predictable npcs