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Turrets and Remote Repair - How a minor tweak can revitalise combat

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CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2012-01-18 11:51:28 UTC
Dark Drifter wrote:
1 would bet all my isk that that frig/pod was one of the following


  • at 100+km burning straight at the erebus - It was killed by giga pulses, which are going to be hitting fall-off at those ranges. Unless they dropped tracking scripts for range, which of course just means the issue is worse.
  • sat perfectly still at any range, probably due to The EPIC lag witnessed during large scale fleet fights - Lag doesn't cause people to sit still. If anything they either e-warp after a jump-in, or continue in the direction they're already heading.
  • empty (ship) outside a POS being used for target practice - I often eject from my ships for hostile alliances to use....
  • being piloted by a compleat and utter ******. - Can be asked of any ship loss, ever. Doesn't prove it's true of course!
  • got webbed by a rapier to nothing with WMD on then poped by the titan - No Rapier on mail.
  • was killed by drones (pre crucible) with turret showing on the KM - KM date is post-Crucible.


Dark Drifter wrote:
i personally say no to your entire idea

Of course you do. How else would you kill people with your titan main while encountering no risk?
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2012-01-18 12:16:02 UTC
Shirley Serious wrote:
there's a racial spread in ship target signature sizes. Minmatar tending towards small signatures, Caldari tending towards larger.
E.g. the Eagle has a base signature of 150m, and so would be hit by battleship sized guns with a limit of 150, whereas a Vagabond with a base signature of 115m, might not, (depending on fit and if using mwd or not).
so the limits for guns would need to be carefully thought, to avoid a situation where some ships in a class are terrible for pvp in mixed gangs, while others are invulnerable to larger guns.


The ideal balance goal would be a case where ships with smaller sigs have correspondingly smaller hitpoints, and vice-versa. Therefore it takes a similar amount of time to kill both in similar scenarios.
Obviously this will take a while to achieve, but it's definitely a good target to aim for.

Blastil wrote:
for once, a goon with a good idea. A ship should only really be a viable option against a ship a size class smaller than it is, and should have unlimited upwards scalability. There's a reason why big battleships had small escorts, and it was because those big old guns couldn't keep up against a little picket ship once it got in close. I too dream of a day where avatar pilots wouldn't dream of going out without an escort of frigates and cruisers to handle interceptors and other small threats.

some points I'd suggest:

Instead of attaching this bonus to the ship, attach this bonus to the GUNS. This way a ship could fit smaller guns if it was going to picket against smaller ships. Also, this ballances the new Teir 3 BC's, in that they're designed to fight against bigger ships, not be a intant frigate killer. it also helps BC's fill their role as anti-frigate and cruiser support for battleships and capital ships.

The proposal does attach the limitation to the guns. Someone has pointed out to me that turrets actually already have a 'signature' attribute that seems to be unused at the moment. This is possibly a deprecated value from CCP trying to implement something similar to this idea previously.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-01-18 13:34:16 UTC
Dark Drifter wrote:
Quote:
frigates and pods being alpha'd by an Erebus


yes you can find kms for this stuff.

but...

1 would bet all my isk that that frig/pod was one of the following


  • at 100+km burning straight at the erebus
  • sat perfectly still at any range, probably due to The EPIC lag witnessed during large scale fleet fights
  • empty (ship) outside a POS being used for target practice
  • being piloted by a compleat and utter ******.
  • got webbed by a rapier to nothing with WMD on then poped by the titan
  • was killed by drones (pre crucible) with turret showing on the KM


i personally say no to your entire idea



Nope, its done on the test server pretty constantly, those guys who have issues with their manhood will sit in the combat arenas with tracking titans.

Probably the best problem is how low risk this makes roaming titan fleets. We had 12 PL supercaps chasing down a 11 man crusier gang (and some other super cap gang too) who eventually caught up because of jump bridges/dictors. Its pretty much no risk. If 2 supercap gangs hit each other, its never blind, and its pretty safe with the only threat to force them to remain on field is a dictor bubble (lol HICs..). Even so, all it takes is said rapier w/ titan fleet to web that sabre once hes within his own bubble and its dead. So 2 minutes top to respond to a titan fleet, ain't gonna happen, unless its bait.
Dark Drifter
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#24 - 2012-01-18 20:29:19 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
Dark Drifter wrote:
1 would bet all my isk that that frig/pod was one of the following


  • at 100+km burning straight at the erebus - It was killed by giga pulses, which are going to be hitting fall-off at those ranges. Unless they dropped tracking scripts for range, which of course just means the issue is worse.
  • sat perfectly still at any range, probably due to The EPIC lag witnessed during large scale fleet fights - Lag doesn't cause people to sit still. If anything they either e-warp after a jump-in, or continue in the direction they're already heading.
  • empty (ship) outside a POS being used for target practice - I often eject from my ships for hostile alliances to use....
  • being piloted by a compleat and utter ******. - Can be asked of any ship loss, ever. Doesn't prove it's true of course!
  • got webbed by a rapier to nothing with WMD on then poped by the titan - No Rapier on mail.
  • was killed by drones (pre crucible) with turret showing on the KM - KM date is post-Crucible.


Dark Drifter wrote:
i personally say no to your entire idea

Of course you do. How else would you kill people with your titan main while encountering no risk?



i dont own a titan. . i fly useful ships...
Dimitryy
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#25 - 2012-01-19 22:55:27 UTC
I would only support this if the TSL thing applied to NPCs as well, i.e. your highsec jewboat paladin wont be able to hit any small ships because lolTSL.
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#26 - 2012-01-20 10:45:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Pink Marshmellow
Why do people all of a sudden want a change in turret mechanics after all these years?

You want to make it so that turrets do little damage to a smaller ship even if its standing still.

Let me take a tank cannon and fire a bird with it. It would be hard to hit, but if it does, does the bird take less damage from the shell than a person does?

The answer is no, that bird is an unrecognizable pile of flesh. The same happens to when Large guns hit frigates.

The turret mechanics are balanced.

Sure the frigate is in danger at long range, but once they get pretty close they are pretty much invincible to the guns.

That is balance Right there.

Smaller ships have their niche and roles. This change hurts Battleships even more. Battleships have little use in mobile gangs, this new proposed mechanic would make them even less useful.

Isn't it good enough that battleships and cruisers can't even hit frigates close up at the range there frigates operate?

Now you want to make frigates an Automatic I WIN BUTTON against someone who flies a bigger ship no matter what he does?

No, I reject this notion.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2012-01-22 22:25:45 UTC
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
Why do people all of a sudden want a change in turret mechanics after all these years?

You want to make it so that turrets do little damage to a smaller ship even if its standing still.

Let me take a tank cannon and fire a bird with it. It would be hard to hit, but if it does, does the bird take less damage from the shell than a person does?

The answer is no, that bird is an unrecognizable pile of flesh. The same happens to when Large guns hit frigates.

The turret mechanics are balanced.


I love this logic. What happens if you drive a 100 ton plane into a building? The plane is reduced to burning scrap metal and the building is rather little less healthy afterward.
What happens if you fly a million ton EVE spaceship into a space station? It bounces off without so much as a comic 'booooing' sound effect. This is because if EVE mimicked real life, people's ships would not last long enough to play it.

If you're intent on applying real life physics analogies to a spaceship video game set IN SPACE, I'd kindly ask you to not comment on game mechanic balance threads and instead focus on writing spergy emails to CCP devs about why faster-than-list warp drive is impossible. And we should have to fly everywhere at sublight speed. Driven by Richard Branson.

Or you could spend the time reading the rest of this thread where every single one of your other points is addressed.
Bartholemu Fu-Baz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-01-24 01:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Bartholemu Fu-Baz
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
Why do people all of a sudden want a change in turret mechanics after all these years?

You want to make it so that turrets do little damage to a smaller ship even if its standing still.

Let me take a tank cannon and fire a bird with it. It would be hard to hit, but if it does, does the bird take less damage from the shell than a person does?

The answer is no, that bird is an unrecognizable pile of flesh. The same happens to when Large guns hit frigates.

The turret mechanics are balanced.

Sure the frigate is in danger at long range, but once they get pretty close they are pretty much invincible to the guns.

That is balance Right there.

Smaller ships have their niche and roles. This change hurts Battleships even more. Battleships have little use in mobile gangs, this new proposed mechanic would make them even less useful.

Isn't it good enough that battleships and cruisers can't even hit frigates close up at the range there frigates operate?

Now you want to make frigates an Automatic I WIN BUTTON against someone who flies a bigger ship no matter what he does?

No, I reject this notion.


While I accept your example, there ought to be a small chance that the bird is hit and obliterated, I think its pretty clear that the larger ships need the smaller ships as cover is a little less true than it used to be. Its one of the problems that cause the newbs (like me maybe to some folk, even though my main ship is a Talos) to be less useful.

Not sure if the TSL or other similar options are the way to go though.

I personally was thinking maybe an across the board Frigate speed buff, maybe a bit graduated so the faster ones don't get a large boost but the slower ones do. (Other empires reverse engineering some of Thukker's work building fast frigs?) Still would need to remember not to fly straight at a Titan. Perhaps small signature size reductions as well?

Small turrets would need a bit of a tracking bonus and standard missiles a tighter explosion radius as well (that's the way it works, right? Don't use missiles alot).

Could also do a touch of that in the cruiser and medium turret range. Might make those poor things more useful again.

PS - Do kinda like the RR causes a small sig size increase on the target, but that could make for some interesting abuse, perhaps. Hostile repping?
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-01-29 19:42:44 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
The proposal does attach the limitation to the guns. Someone has pointed out to me that turrets actually already have a 'signature' attribute that seems to be unused at the moment. This is possibly a deprecated value from CCP trying to implement something similar to this idea previously.

Turret signature resolution is not 'unused' at all - it's an integral part of the current tracking formula: http://wiki.eve-id.net/Tracking

Anyway, I dislike the idea for two reasons. First, depending on how mwd sig bloom is handled, it could break combat in various ways. Second, I really don't see the problem with large guns tracking smaller targets if they're being dumb or the guy in the larger ship has engineered the situation such that he can apply a reasonable fraction of his theoretical damage.

Also, the idea that the change would promote more diversity of gang comps seems unduly optimistic - there'd be a brief shakeup while people tried things out, then everything would get min-maxed, a few near-optimal solutions would be found, and we'd be right back where we are at present.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2012-02-08 21:20:00 UTC
bumpin dis very good xttz idea

which csm reps are willing to endorse this?
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