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HI-Sec, working as intended? A solution to Hi-sec illegal ganking.

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-01-29 14:23:00 UTC
Honnete Du Decimer wrote:
Andski wrote:
Why should gankers be punished beyond ship loss through game mechanics?


When 5M ISK ships can kill 200M ISK ships.


You seem to think that the cost of your ship is relevant to anything.

Guess what, it's not. That 5 million ISK destroyer killed you because you decided that your Hulk doesn't need a tank.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2012-01-29 14:53:57 UTC
Honnete Du Decimer wrote:
Andski wrote:
Why should gankers be punished beyond ship loss through game mechanics?


When 5M ISK ships can kill 200M ISK ships.



Wow. If you want to make EVE 'fair', why on earth would you want to make it impossible for a cheap ship to kill a more expensive one?

There are PLENTY of ways to avoid getting ganked. It isn't the fault of game mechanics that you people just aren't using them.
Ursula LeGuinn
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-01-29 15:02:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn
The other day, I was docked in Jita flying a BR fit exclusively for fast, medium-volume, medium-value cargo transportation in highsec; it had two T1 warp speed rigs (for a total of 13 AU/sec), no MWD (replaced with a T2 shield tank), and a DCII in one of the lows.

I was debating undocking to my insta with cargo worth about as much as the ship itself (that would be ~210m total, including the ship). After a few moments, I decided that while I would probably be safe (particularly in an agile BR with an insta), I wasn't willing to risk the BR itself on that cargo. So, I ferried the cargo out of Jita piecemeal in a cheap courier frigate.

This game needs that — the inability to just herpa derp anywhere you please without any risk. Yes, even in highsec.

"The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community." — EVElopedia
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-01-29 15:30:58 UTC
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
Anything that promotes further difficulty to ganking in high sec I agree with in prinicpal.

The imbalance afforded here is ridiculous.

There is no and hasnt been a working bounty system for ages. Other mechanics work in their favour, as per the mentioned war dec prinicipals, gankers can maniuplate the corporation systems too easily for reprisal.

Emphasis in this game seems to be it should be a risk/reward process. Yet the rewards for attacking soft targets with relative impunity does not reflect this model.

Gankers have it too easy. Make it harder, but don't eliminate it.


+ 1

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Velicitia
XS Tech
#25 - 2012-01-29 15:42:37 UTC
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
Anything that promotes further difficulty to ganking in high sec I agree with in prinicpal.
Gankers have it too easy. Make it harder, but don't eliminate it.


Seems what you're looking for is already in the game. Use the below as necessary.


Damage Control II

[50|100|200|400|800|1600]mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates
[Small|Medium|Large|Capital] Armour Repairer II*
[Small|Medium|Large|Capital] Remote Armour Repairer II*
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Kinetic Plating II
Reactive Plating II
Reflective Plating II
Regenerative Plating II
Thermic Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Kinetic Membrane II
Energized Reactive Membrane II
Energized Reflective Membrane II
Energized Regenerative Membrane II
Energized Thermic Membrane II
Armour EM Hardener II
Armour Explosive Hardener II
Armour Kinetic Hardener II
Armour Thermic Hardener II
[Small|Medium|Large] Anti-EM Pump
[Small|Medium|Large] Anti-Explosive Pump
[Small|Medium|Large] Anti-Kinetic Pump
[Small|Medium|Large] Anti-Thermic Pump
[Small|Medium|Large] Auxiliary Nano Pump
[Small|Medium|Large] Nanobot Accelerator
[Small|Medium|Large] Repair Augmentor
[Small|Medium|Large] Trimark Armour Pump

[Small|Medium|Large|X-Large|Capital] Shield Booster II*
[Micro|Small|Medium|Large] Shield Extender II
[Micro|Small|Medium|Large|Capital] Shield Transporter II*
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Explosion Dampening Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Explosion Dampening Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Shield Flux Coil II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Recharger II
[Small|Medium|Large] Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer
[Small|Medium|Large] Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer
[Small|Medium|Large] Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer
[Small|Medium|Large] Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer
[Small|Medium|Large] Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard
[Small|Medium|Large] Core Defence Charge Economizer
[Small|Medium|Large] Core Defence Field Extender
[Small|Medium|Large] Core Defence Field Purger
[Small|Medium|Large] Core Defence Operational Solidifier


*Note -- Cap modules are T1 Meta0 or Meta2 only.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Ursula LeGuinn
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-01-29 16:19:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn
Velicitia wrote:
Seems what you're looking for is already in the game. Use the below as necessary.


Not to mention staying aligned for warp, keeping an eye on local and utilizing d-scan. Intel tools will still go a long way toward preventing a gank in highsec. OP, I'd be interested to know which ships ganked you, what you were flying and where.

"The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community." — EVElopedia
Honnete Du Decimer
#27 - 2012-01-29 16:28:00 UTC
It funny. Topic like this is get many argue but if so many feel strong for two side it usually are problem. Developer need look for compromise.

PMS [:p]
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-01-29 17:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Eshtir
Faceless Lady wrote:

1. Concord will not just destroy your ship but also pod you.

3. Denial of killmail. HI-sec ganking should not give the crminal bragging rights. Deny killmails for all illegal hi-sec ganking.

This and this is what I would love to see.

CONCORD should just pod their ass into oblivion, reduce their SP count even with an updated clone, and shoot them on site at gates while traveling AFK in a pod...cause its a cold harsh universe and they should be reminded of it everytime they drop below -5 that some equilibrium should be maintained. I would pod them myself, but if I am to lazy to bother.

Killmails. Gamer's crumple and cry like a little girl when you touch their score. Implement a buy back system of your killmail, for 2 million isk for each one like a wardec. Guy is bragging to his buds..."Hey check out this hulk kill...*silence over Vent, followed by an explosion of anger* OMFG! THAT PLAYER TOOK IT BACK!!!"

Yeah, will never happen. But would be nice if they did Twisted

(removed profanity - ISD Eshtir)
Kelly Kavanagh
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-01-29 18:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kelly Kavanagh
This most definitely is a problem but, I prefer to address problems with the most immersive solutions. So what would we do in real life?

Escorts! The least NPC corps can do for their 11% tax is provide you with a faction navy escort. The size and capabilities of your escorts should depend directly on your standing with the faction, all the way down to -9, and inversely on the security level of the system you're in, all the way out to 0.1 systems. If you commit an offense, you get attacked by your victims escorts as well as your own.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2012-01-29 19:02:11 UTC
Kelly Kavanagh wrote:
This most definitely is a problem
In what way is it a problem?

As for the escorts, they already exist. People just choose not to do them.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2012-01-29 19:09:52 UTC
Kelly Kavanagh wrote:
This most definitely is a problem but, I prefer to address problems with the most immersive solutions. So what would we do in real life?

Escorts! The least NPC corps can do for their 11% tax is provide you with a faction navy escort. The size and capabilities of your escorts should depend directly on your standing with the faction, all the way down to -9, and inversely on the security level of the system you're in, all the way out to 0.1 systems. If you commit an offense, you get attacked by your victims escorts as well as your own.


What happens when you die? What do your escorts do?

And what happens when we kill them too?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-01-29 19:15:34 UTC
"I want NPCs to solve all of my problems for me in the popular single-player game EVE Online"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Kelly Kavanagh
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-01-29 19:24:08 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Tippia wrote:

In what way is it a problem?

As for the escorts, they already exist. People just choose not to do them.

Too much fun for criminals, not enough fun for victims.

NPC escorts, not player escorts.

Danika Princip wrote:

What happens when you die?
What do your escorts do?
And what happens when we kill them too?

I respawn in station, buy another ship, and undock with a new escort.
My last escort fights you until they die or destroy your ship.
If you're still there, then you face an increasing number of both
navy and CONCORD ships until your ship pops.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#34 - 2012-01-29 19:40:15 UTC
Kelly Kavanagh wrote:
Too much fun for criminals, not enough fun for victims.
Oh, I don't know. Staying away from the criminals is quite fun… or it would be, if it wasn't so incredibly trivial to do.
Quote:
NPC escorts, not player escorts.
Why are they needed when a solution already exists?
Competing with player-run businesses isn't really something NPCs should do.
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#35 - 2012-01-29 19:46:29 UTC
Andski wrote:
"I want NPCs to solve all of my problems for me in the popular single-player game EVE Online"


This is what we get when lazy, entitled players from other MMO's come running to EVE. Unfortunately it's polarizing the attitudes among the playerbase. Oh well, let's see how long this whining lasts before the ganking gets worse.

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

Kelly Kavanagh
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-01-29 19:48:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kelly Kavanagh
Tippia wrote:

Kelly Kavanagh wrote:

NPC escorts, not player escorts.

Why are they needed when a solution already exists?

Pirate corps are not a solution to piracy. That's why:

Kelly Kavanagh wrote:
This most definitely is a problem but, I prefer to address problems with the most immersive solutions. So what would we do in real life?

Escorts! The least NPC corps can do for their 11% tax is provide you with a faction navy escort. The size and capabilities of your escorts should depend directly on your standing with the faction, all the way down to -9, and inversely on the security level of the system you're in, all the way out to 0.1 systems. If you commit an offense, you get attacked by your victims escorts as well as your own.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-01-29 19:59:53 UTC
Kelly Kavanagh wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Kelly Kavanagh wrote:

NPC escorts, not player escorts.

Why are they needed when a solution already exists?

Pirate corps are not a solution to piracy. That's why:

Kelly Kavanagh wrote:
This most definitely is a problem but, I prefer to address problems with the most immersive solutions. So what would we do in real life?

Escorts! The least NPC corps can do for their 11% tax is provide you with a faction navy escort. The size and capabilities of your escorts should depend directly on your standing with the faction, all the way down to -9, and inversely on the security level of the system you're in, all the way out to 0.1 systems. If you commit an offense, you get attacked by your victims escorts as well as your own.


Andski wrote:
"I want NPCs to solve all of my problems for me in the popular single-player game EVE Online"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Griptus
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-01-29 20:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Griptus
Velicitia wrote:

Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:

Anything that promotes further difficulty to ganking in high sec I agree with in prinicpal.
Gankers have it too easy. Make it harder, but don't eliminate it.


Seems what you're looking for is already in the game. Use the below as necessary.

"long list of t1 and t2 mods for shield, armor, and haul"
(edited for brevity)

tl;dr

None of which help the rookies who fly frigates and destroyers and don't have the skills for t2 modules.

But I expect no less from a player who's avatar looks afflicted with microcephaly.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#39 - 2012-01-29 20:56:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Griptus wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:

Anything that promotes further difficulty to ganking in high sec I agree with in prinicpal.
Gankers have it too easy. Make it harder, but don't eliminate it.


Seems what you're looking for is already in the game. Use the below as necessary.

"long list of t1 and t2 mods for shield, armor, and haul"
(edited for brevity)

tl;dr

None of which help the rookies who fly frigates and destroyers and don't have the skills for t2 modules.

But I expect no less from a player who's avatar looks afflicted with microcephaly.


So replace said T2 with Meta0-4 where you can't fit said T2.

Though it's not exactly long to train for any of those

DCU II & Resist Plating-- 2 days (Hull Upgrades 4)
Energized Membranes & Armour Hardeners-- 11 days (Hull Upgrades 5)
Tungsten Plates -- 8h (Hull Upgrades 3)
Reppers -- 6 days (Mechanic 5, Repair Systems 4)
Remote Rep -- 2 days (Remote Armour Repair Systems 4)

Shield Boosters -- 5d (Shield Op 5)
Boost Amplifier -- 18 days (Shield Management 5)
Shield Flux Coil & SPR -- 2d (Energy Grid Upgrades 4)
Shield Hardeners -- 4d (Tactical Shield Manipulation 4)
Shield Recharger & Resistance Amplifiers -- 2d (Shield Upgrades 4)
Shield Transporter -- 4d (Shield Emission Systems 4)

Rigs --> 12 hours (Armour or Shield Rigging 1)


OK, so ... yeah an absolutely fresh out of the academy noob won't have all the skills ... but, MOST of the prereq skills will get trained in your first month, with the Shield Boost Amplifiers or Hardeners/Membranes taking you into your second/third month (assuming you're also training gunnery/missiles). Because, seriously ... the first skills to be training are core fitting and core defence. See no reason why anyone older than 6 months SHOULDN'T be able to use the T2 stuff though (dependant on your racial tanking preference)...

ISK to pay for these is another factor, but when ISK is the factor, you go to meta regardless of whether or not you "can" fit the T2.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Nooma K'Larr
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-01-29 20:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nooma K'Larr
If Concord gets involved then it is obviously a criminal act. So I see the differences in system sec as a robber wanting to rob a well protected bank (1.0) versus robing an abandoned house (0.5).

1. No killmail. That is a must.

2. Dropped loot is inaccessible and made available to the victim only. Not to passersby or the criminal's backup.

3. ISK fine equal to victim's insurance payoff imposed on the criminal. Giving him a negative account if he doesn't have it.

These three thing would curb ganking.

That is unless CCP like things the way they are...which means nothing will change and the game will continue to be unbalanced in the name of being "hardcore." Roll