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Drake changes from CSM minutes.
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V'oba
Omnivores of Mediocrity
Omnivores
#201 - 2012-01-28 04:03:35 UTC
Missile sniping is a useless role for any ship. The Caracal/ NCara/ and Cerb all need to be redesigned from the ground up imo. Standard Caracal arguably less so, given its proficiency for eating frigs, but the others definitely. The new Drake looks like it's being brought pretty much right in line with the other tier 2 BCs in both ehp and dps.

One could still argue though that part of its character was to be over-tanked. In that case I would accept the rof bonus with a straight ehp bonus rather than resistances or missile velocity, so it will still have raw buffer but be less-effective when paired with logis.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#202 - 2012-01-28 04:13:27 UTC
V'oba wrote:
Missile sniping is a useless role for any ship. The Caracal/ NCara/ and Cerb all need to be redesigned from the ground up imo. Standard Caracal arguably less so, given its proficiency for eating frigs, but the others definitely. The new Drake looks like it's being brought pretty much right in line with the other tier 2 BCs in both ehp and dps.

One could still argue though that part of its character was to be over-tanked. In that case I would accept the rof bonus with a straight ehp bonus rather than resistances or missile velocity, so it will still have raw buffer but be less-effective when paired with logis.


Yes, if you are sniping shuttles from 200km with a Cerb you are probably doing it wrong. That doesn't make it the only use of the bonus.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Greybush Threepwood
Doomheim
#203 - 2012-01-28 04:52:12 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

The Cerb is obsoleted because it has **** fittings, not because the role it occupies is useless.


Liang Nuren wrote:
That doesn't make it the only use of the bonus.


I'm still waiting to hear what you think that role is and how you can imagine a cerb, with just a fitting adjustment (I presume you're talking about it's lacking grid) would be better than any alternatives.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#204 - 2012-01-28 05:43:30 UTC
Greybush Threepwood wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The Cerb is obsoleted because it has **** fittings, not because the role it occupies is useless.


Liang Nuren wrote:
That doesn't make it the only use of the bonus.


I'm still waiting to hear what you think that role is and how you can imagine a cerb, with just a fitting adjustment (I presume you're talking about it's lacking grid) would be better than any alternatives.


I'd fit it like a cheap Tengu and go **** BC gangs with it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#205 - 2012-01-28 07:10:07 UTC
I just wish ccp would ease up on the changes.

Want to nerf the drake reduce one number a small amount. Maybe base shield or regen or something similar.

This entire lets change the bonuses and reinvent the wheel stuff has got to stop.

People are getting sick of training up items for ships that become useless builds for that ship after some big wig flexes his power of doing something big to earn his pay check. Short end of the stick seems to get shorter everyday on this game.
Vala Kyrija
LUX Uls Xystus
LUX aRe us
#206 - 2012-01-28 12:16:17 UTC
In my book it's the worst idea I've ever seen in eve.
It does nothing meaningful but makes the drake one among the masses.

Every game in which the designers startet to even everything out got worse by doing so.

The drake can tank. Thats what it should do. If it's too strong overall nerf it's damage, not it's tank.
If those changes go life one can just as well fly winmatar, cause it's gonna be the same.

For tanking by doing damage we already have the crap caracal and the crap raven. Don't crap the drake as much. Please.

It's not that I fly my old drake very much since I do my missions with my nighthawk, do exploration with my tengu but as it is now it's one of the coolest ships in eve and it will be trash with those changes.
Vala Kyrija
LUX Uls Xystus
LUX aRe us
#207 - 2012-01-28 12:19:27 UTC
Just because some ppl like to fly high dps ships it doesn't mean it's ok to destroy the game for ppl liking to fly high tank ships.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#208 - 2012-01-28 12:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
The Cerberus is difficult but not impossible to fit. It can still mount a 41k tank with 3 BCUs and a rack of HMLs, but needs pretty much maxed out CPU skills to do so. An equivilent HAM fit needs an ACR but doesn't gimp it too badly.

About a 10% grid and CPU buff would make it perfect, to be honest.

Quote:
Just because some ppl like to fly high dps ships it doesn't mean it's ok to destroy the game for ppl liking to fly high tank ships.

And yet another idiot that assumes just because the Drake is losing the tank bonus, it'll now drop to cruiser level EHP or something.
Hint: it won't.
Vala Kyrija
LUX Uls Xystus
LUX aRe us
#209 - 2012-01-28 13:44:56 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
The Cerberus is difficult but not impossible to fit. It can still mount a 41k tank with 3 BCUs and a rack of HMLs, but needs pretty much maxed out CPU skills to do so. An equivilent HAM fit needs an ACR but doesn't gimp it too badly.

About a 10% grid and CPU buff would make it perfect, to be honest.

Quote:
Just because some ppl like to fly high dps ships it doesn't mean it's ok to destroy the game for ppl liking to fly high tank ships.

And yet another idiot that assumes just because the Drake is losing the tank bonus, it'll now drop to cruiser level EHP or something.
Hint: it won't.


And yet another moron who thinks he knows what other ppl are thinking.
It'll not drop to cruiser ehp but it will loose it's uniqueness in that it's a ship that vastly favors tank over damage.

All those who want to fly high dps ships got plenty to choose from. Why has it to be the only ship that has another style?


I think the whole change is about those stupid wannabees that fly to wh space with some pvp fittet winmatar ship to find the easy kill that a pve fittet ratter suposedly is. They engage with dps that don't break the drake's tank, start neuting the passive fittet drake in hope to break the tank that way and don't notice that by doing that they empty their own cap, can't tank the drake and it's drones any more and don't even notice that the pve fittet drake doesn't scramble them and die.

And instead of learning from their stupidity they go to the forums and whine about how unfair it is that a drake who doesn't waste medslots for points can do both: more damage that their tank and more tank than their damage.

Seen the whining more than once in some ingame help channel.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#210 - 2012-01-28 14:17:18 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Greybush Threepwood wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The Cerb is obsoleted because it has **** fittings, not because the role it occupies is useless.


Liang Nuren wrote:
That doesn't make it the only use of the bonus.


I'm still waiting to hear what you think that role is and how you can imagine a cerb, with just a fitting adjustment (I presume you're talking about it's lacking grid) would be better than any alternatives.


I'd fit it like a cheap Tengu and go **** BC gangs with it.

-Liang


And indeed BS gangs that can't do damage past 80-90Km (eg: Hellcats)

+25% resist bonus makes for a nice tank

Being out of range makes for a better one.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2012-01-28 19:05:14 UTC
Vala Kyrija wrote:

It'll not drop to cruiser ehp but it will loose it's uniqueness in that it's a ship that vastly favors tank over damage.


Yeah cause the Ferox and prophecy dont exist right? Oh and how about that Gila and Ratter, and the now more used space bus.

Im sorry the drake is just not a special snowflake you are trying to pretend it is.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Seraph Minayin
Accounts Payable.
#212 - 2012-01-28 19:16:42 UTC
Actually, I've done a quick blog post on this, though I am slightly biased towards keeping the brake as it is Big smile

Drake nerf bad

Lemming Fleet - First Admiral
Greybush Threepwood
Doomheim
#213 - 2012-01-28 22:43:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Greybush Threepwood
Malcanis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Greybush Threepwood wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The Cerb is obsoleted because it has **** fittings, not because the role it occupies is useless.


Liang Nuren wrote:
That doesn't make it the only use of the bonus.


I'm still waiting to hear what you think that role is and how you can imagine a cerb, with just a fitting adjustment (I presume you're talking about it's lacking grid) would be better than any alternatives.


I'd fit it like a cheap Tengu and go **** BC gangs with it.

-Liang


And indeed BS gangs that can't do damage past 80-90Km (eg: Hellcats)

+25% resist bonus makes for a nice tank

Being out of range makes for a better one.


1. Liang, which tengu fit did you have in mind?

2. Malc, we both know range tank with missiles is doomed to failure.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#214 - 2012-01-28 23:01:18 UTC
Greybush Threepwood wrote:

2. Malc, we both know range tank with missiles is doomed to failure.


Oh right OK I'll just erase the last 18 months or so from my memory and agree with you.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#215 - 2012-01-28 23:03:35 UTC
Quote:
2. Malc, we both know range tank with missiles is doomed to failure.


Confirming that nanodrakes are terrible and nobody uses them.

Moving on...
Greybush Threepwood
Doomheim
#216 - 2012-01-28 23:18:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Greybush Threepwood wrote:

2. Malc, we both know range tank with missiles is doomed to failure.


Oh right OK I'll just erase the last 18 months or so from my memory and agree with you.


Yes, becase as we all know drakes have no tank and are perfectly analogous to the cerb.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2012-01-28 23:19:28 UTC
Quote:
Yes, becase as we all know drakes have no tank and are perfectly analogous to the cerb.


You explicitly said that range tanking with missiles is not doable. You didn't specify which ships. Therefore, you were factually incorrect, as it's regularly done with the Drake.
Greybush Threepwood
Doomheim
#218 - 2012-01-28 23:29:52 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Quote:
Yes, becase as we all know drakes have no tank and are perfectly analogous to the cerb.


You explicitly said that range tanking with missiles is not doable. You didn't specify which ships. Therefore, you were factually incorrect, as it's regularly done with the Drake.


You must have missed the last half dozen posts i've made here. Feel free to read them.
Nina Lowel
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#219 - 2012-01-28 23:30:38 UTC
will be interesting
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#220 - 2012-01-29 01:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Greybush Threepwood wrote:
Roosterton wrote:
Quote:
Yes, becase as we all know drakes have no tank and are perfectly analogous to the cerb.


You explicitly said that range tanking with missiles is not doable. You didn't specify which ships. Therefore, you were factually incorrect, as it's regularly done with the Drake.


You must have missed the last half dozen posts i've made here. Feel free to read them.


It doesn't matter; you said the range tank with missiles doesn't work, full stop. I'm pointing out a flaw in that argument. The cerb has its problems, but those problems aren't because it's forced to range tank with missiles, it's because of other issues, such as fittings. If you wanted to diss the Cerb, you should have mentioned that instead. Missiles are actually a kiter's dream weapon...