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Boycott the CSM selection process and vote
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met worst
Doomheim
#101 - 2012-01-27 12:06:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
met worst wrote:
Read the thread first and then use 50c to call someone who gives a **** about the BS you're about to espouse..
So there's nothing flawed about the system, then?

You just keep saying that it is, but you never explain how.

Tippia. It's late, I'm going to bed.

While I am gone, write a thesis, in 5000 words or less, without misquoting and contextually dissecting every post, and explain why the voter turnout is so small.

And in your answer, explain why this is not an obvious flaw in the system.

I'll do my best to digest and respond with a hot coffee and a rested mind in oh, about 8 hours.

G'night.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#102 - 2012-01-27 12:08:40 UTC
met worst wrote:
Tippia. It's late, I'm going to bed.

While I am gone, write a thesis, in 5000 words or less, without misquoting and contextually dissecting every post, and explain why the voter turnout is so small.

And in your answer, explain why this is not an obvious flaw in the system.
How about, instead, you explain what the flaw is since you're the one claiming that such a flaw exists?

Onus probandi and all that.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#103 - 2012-01-27 12:27:37 UTC
met worst wrote:

Tippia. It's late, I'm going to bed.

While I am gone, write a thesis, in 5000 words or less, without misquoting and contextually dissecting every post, and explain why the voter turnout is so small.

And in your answer, explain why this is not an obvious flaw in the system.

I'll do my best to digest and respond with a hot coffee and a rested mind in oh, about 8 hours.

G'night.


The people who dont vote dont care enough to vote and thus their opinion does not matter.

A bit less than 5000 but what else can you say?
Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#104 - 2012-01-27 12:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganagati
baltec1 wrote:
met worst wrote:

Tippia. It's late, I'm going to bed.

While I am gone, write a thesis, in 5000 words or less, without misquoting and contextually dissecting every post, and explain why the voter turnout is so small.

And in your answer, explain why this is not an obvious flaw in the system.

I'll do my best to digest and respond with a hot coffee and a rested mind in oh, about 8 hours.

G'night.


The people who dont vote dont care enough to vote and thus their opinion does not matter.

A bit less than 5000 but what else can you say?


Or they don't come to forums as much?

I'll tell you this- the 2 or 3 years I was in 0.0 I lived on forums. Now that I'm in highsec, I really don't find a need to come here as often, except when I'm bored or feeling argumentative.

/shrug

*EDIT- maybe I was on forums so much in 0.0 cause I was bored senseless, and now that I'm in highsec I have stuff to do so I don't feel the need to be on here as much. >_> Now that I think about it, that's likely the case*

.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#105 - 2012-01-27 12:35:35 UTC
Ganagati wrote:

Or they don't come to forums as much?

I'll tell you this- the 2 or 3 years I was in 0.0 I lived on forums. Now that I'm in highsec, I really don't find a need to come here as often, except when I'm bored or feeling argumentative.

/shrug

*EDIT- maybe I was on forums so much in 0.0 cause I was bored senseless, and now that I'm in highsec I have stuff to do so I don't feel the need to be on here as much. >_> Now that I think about it, that's likely the case*


This would be a good point if it wasnt for the fact that CCP advertises the CSM elections upon log in, in the news you see in log in and it is debated in every main hub in empire as well as eve radio.
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#106 - 2012-01-27 12:46:57 UTC
met worst wrote:
I've read every post carefully and there is one trend forming that completely misses the mark of my OP.

Most are extolling the virtue of the CSM voting system post-process. I am extolling the lack of virtue pre-process. An entirely different matter.

By voting in such a flawed system you are accepting the flawed system and are participating in it's "rightfullness" by default whether you agree with the system or not. You are abrogating your responsibility to declare the system faulty and seek change.

A vote in a flawed system is a flawed vote - doesn't matter how you try to intepret it, wordsmith it or turn a blind eye to it.

The majority of Eve has previously proved it's indifference to the CSM process (it's in the numbers) and any attempt to downplay this is showing absolute ignorance to the glaringly obvious flaw.

Be that as it may, I along with many, many thousands of Eve players will not participate in the CSM process. If this somehow emboldens those that do into believing that it's democracy at work, well then enjoy.

God help the country you reside in if you are that ******* gullible.


Sounds exactly like the US election system...

Any election that is not compolsury(sp lazy) will be beget with apathy.

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#107 - 2012-01-27 12:50:55 UTC
met worst wrote:
If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.

If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.

Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.

Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.





So your solution to the situation where lots of 0.0 people voted and not many hi sec people voted is to encourage even fewer hi-sec people to vote?

Obvious goon alt is obvious....

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ravenstain
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#108 - 2012-01-27 12:59:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravenstain
I must say the that on some level I do agree with the OP about the CSM voting system being flawed as it really represents only a small part of the players. Actually, flawed isnt right. Imperfect maybe, would be closer to the mark. As someone stated previously - its not perfect, but there is nothing better for now.

That said, as the situation stands now not voting will only show that you dont care about the CSM, and with that I mean that you dont see anything wrong with what they do, or you feel that CSM doesnt have any real power and thus isnt worth fusing about. As i see it, the OP doesnt say anything about the CSM being worthless as a body, but rather than him not liking the election system and that he would like the CSM to be more representative of a larger part of the players.

Unfortunately to change the voting system you would a have to bring the issue to the attention of the CCP. Thats what CSM is there for in the first place (or thats my take on what they are for). So under the current system one would do much better to vote (or run himself) for someone with similar views on the matter. Then if the candidate get voted in he can present the issue to CCP and things might get moving. If hes not voted in... well tough. Better luck next time. I wont suggest any possible improvements to the system as there are other forum sections for that and I have seen some pretty reasonable ideas there.

met worst wrote:
And if you'd had the decency to read the thread you'd see that I'm suggesting giving CCP TRUE feedback by saying the majority DGAF about the CSM by turning their back on it.

Happened last time with pisspoor voting turnout - make it even MORE obvious because they missed it.



As I mentioned above boycotting the election under this system will only show CCP that you are not worried about the CSM influencing the game in some way that you may not like. Wether that is because you think that CCP doesnt listen to CSM anyway, or that CSMs proposals will not influence your gaming experience, doesnt matter, frankly. The fact remains - it will look like you are OK with whats happening.

Anyway... not to rant on any longer, Ill just say that I will be voting in the CSM elections and Ill be voting for the candidate that represents my views most closely.


Disclaimer: written based on the belief that OP isnt a goon alt. P
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2012-01-27 13:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jafit McJafitson
I 100% endorse this this course of action. Another winning strategy from the Eve-O forums.


Ravenstain wrote:
I must say the that on some level I do agree with the OP about the CSM voting system being flawed as it really represents only a small part of the players. Actually, flawed isnt right. Imperfect maybe, would be closer to the mark. As someone stated previously - its not perfect, but there is nothing better for now.


It does represent the majority of the players who cared enough to vote. That's how democracy works.

"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill

So basically if you hate the current CSM election system, you're as bad as HlTLER.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2012-01-27 13:06:48 UTC
Do nothing and allow for the 0.0 boys club to continue. Smart move.

I lied :o
Ravenstain
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-01-27 13:11:31 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
I 100% endorse this this course of action. Another winning strategy from the Eve-O forums.


Ravenstain wrote:
I must say the that on some level I do agree with the OP about the CSM voting system being flawed as it really represents only a small part of the players. Actually, flawed isnt right. Imperfect maybe, would be closer to the mark. As someone stated previously - its not perfect, but there is nothing better for now.


It does represent the majority of the players who cared enough to vote. That's how democracy works.

"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill

So basically to hate the current CSM election system makes you HlTLER.



Well, I didnt say anything about me hating the election system. Im quite fine with it. In an ideal world where all the players vote, I feel that system should be a little different, but as it stands now I have little or no objection.
Adunh Slavy
#112 - 2012-01-28 01:11:41 UTC
The ultimate vote is customers and their money. CCP would be wise to examine where the majority their customer base resides, high sec, low sec, null, are they in alliances or not?

If the CSM does not represent the true power base of Eve, that being the paying customer, then CCP will likely give the CSM the lesser weight it deserves, and if they do not, the customers will vote with their money.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#113 - 2012-01-28 01:42:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:



But the CSM doesnt represent the majority of eve players now.
They represent the people that voted for them, and have done pretty well at that IMO.



The current CSM reprisents the majority of people who care enough about this game to vote.


My point exactly

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
met worst
Doomheim
#114 - 2012-01-28 01:48:00 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
The ultimate vote is customers and their money. CCP would be wise to examine where the majority their customer base resides, high sec, low sec, null, are they in alliances or not?

If the CSM does not represent the true power base of Eve, that being the paying customer, then CCP will likely give the CSM the lesser weight it deserves, and if they do not, the customers will vote with their money.

A pertinent fact that would not be escaping CCP's attention.

Hence my call.

Majority voting in a democracy is fine. This is neither a democratic process nor is it a majority.

BOYCOTT THE CSM.
None ofthe Above
#115 - 2012-01-28 01:51:48 UTC
met worst wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
The ultimate vote is customers and their money. CCP would be wise to examine where the majority their customer base resides, high sec, low sec, null, are they in alliances or not?

If the CSM does not represent the true power base of Eve, that being the paying customer, then CCP will likely give the CSM the lesser weight it deserves, and if they do not, the customers will vote with their money.

A pertinent fact that would not be escaping CCP's attention.

Hence my call.

Majority voting in a democracy is fine. This is neither a democratic process nor is it a majority.

BOYCOTT THE CSM.


An effective boycott withholds something desired by the other party. Your proposal fails to do this.

I recommend a protest vote for None ofthe Above!

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
met worst
Doomheim
#116 - 2012-01-28 01:53:26 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
met worst wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
The ultimate vote is customers and their money. CCP would be wise to examine where the majority their customer base resides, high sec, low sec, null, are they in alliances or not?

If the CSM does not represent the true power base of Eve, that being the paying customer, then CCP will likely give the CSM the lesser weight it deserves, and if they do not, the customers will vote with their money.

A pertinent fact that would not be escaping CCP's attention.

Hence my call.

Majority voting in a democracy is fine. This is neither a democratic process nor is it a majority.

BOYCOTT THE CSM.


An effective boycott withholds something desired by the other party. Your proposal fails to do this.

I recommend a protest vote for None ofthe Above!

I'll vote for you if you guarantee not to run.
None ofthe Above
#117 - 2012-01-28 01:54:43 UTC
met worst wrote:

I'll vote for you if you guarantee not to run.


Wouldn't I have to run in order for you to vote for me?

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
met worst
Doomheim
#118 - 2012-01-28 02:04:20 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
met worst wrote:

I'll vote for you if you guarantee not to run.


Wouldn't I have to run in order for you to vote for me?

And here I was thinkin' you was a clever one Roll
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#119 - 2012-01-28 02:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
The purpose of CSM is to represent the players of eve in the continued development of the game.

As it works now it just gets one type of player/ego that even involves themselves as the rest of the community have other things in thier lives to deal with.

So as it sits it only represents a small faction of the player base and is fail.


Other option:

Have all people interested in being part of the CSM apply for it.
Have a lottery for those interested.
Make sure the those who get offered the positions understand the job requirements.
Problem solved? Nope
This will make those who are most vested in the game angry that someone who has been around six months and may not be around six months later will be too involved.


Half ass solution:

2/3's of the populace that have an account that is over one year old using lottery system and 1/3 voted in.
Still not perfect but these treads can offically **** off after that.Pirate
met worst
Doomheim
#120 - 2012-01-28 02:19:11 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
The purpose of CSM is to represent the players of eve in the continued development of the game.

As it works now it just gets one type of player/ego that even involves themselves as the rest of the community have other things in thier lives to deal with.

So as it sits it only represents a small faction of the player base and is fail.


Other option:

Have all people interested in being part of the CSM apply for it.
Have a lottery for those interested.
Make sure the those who get offered the positions understand the job requirements.
Problem solved? Nope
This will make those who are most vested in the game angry that someone who has been around six months and may not be around six months later will be too involved.


Half ass solution: 2/3's the populace using lottery system and 1/3 voted in. Still not perfect but these treads can offically **** off after that.Pirate


It would be much easier to use existing LIKES methods and call it a democratic process.

Then threads like this wouldn't need to be posted and we can all **** off.

Oh wait.....