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Solid pvp pilots = mathmetician?
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Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#1 - 2012-01-27 17:15:57 UTC
No matter how many times I read a Tippia or Liang posts outlining all sorts math variables to a fitting, or someone who goes on and on about the numerical values behind various tradeoffs of a fit or combat scenario, I just can't seem to remember much less grasp all these numbers.

Successful PvP is partly based on preparation. So I appreciate the analytical skills that some of you show as you argue the pros and cons of a fit and/or scenario. But do you really need to be a solid number cruncher in order to be a solid combat pilot in this game? Is having solid situation awareness and common sense enough? Or are the best pilots also uber number crunchers?

I define a solid pilot as someone who can solo decently or be useful in a small gang. Not referring to point and click blob warfare.

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-01-27 17:22:22 UTC
It helps significantly, yes.

You can make more and more simple "rules" you can stick to, to help a win in a fight - but the more you know the better your chances to get it right and in a game like this thats definitly not supprising.

generally you want to get your ranges and dps sorted in yor mind, know what ships are likly to use certain weapons/tackle combos.

For example a taranis intercepter will likly use blasters, a scrambler and a web. How you fight it depends on your own ships abilitys, not to mention weather or not hes going to have backup and how long your window of winning is.

TL;DR
Eves a very specific number based game, the more you know about pvp ships, the easyer it is to make the right decision.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Agromos nulKaedi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-01-27 17:27:23 UTC
What i've seen so far is that you do not need to be heavy into the basic algebra and trigonometry involved, however you need to not be math-phobic. There are numbers and formulas. They mean things. The things they tell are actually pretty intuitive concepts. But anyone who, as a lot of high school graduates say when presented with basic life skills problems, hurriedly says "I'm not a math person" is probably going to recoil from it all.

What the heck does that phrase even MEAN? Do we let three year olds say "I'm just not a potty-training person"? Seriously. If you're afraid of high school level maths, get over it or be consigned to spend the rest of your life working under someone who isn't.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#4 - 2012-01-27 17:59:37 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=42133&find=unread

Just listen to these guys and you'll find out that Kil2 often has no idea of maths and rather operates by feeling/practise and so on.

I'd say that maths usually pretty much ends the moment you hit 'undock' button.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#5 - 2012-01-27 18:15:38 UTC
The math all happens before you ever undock - and even that is mostly knowing what the common fits for the common ships are capable of. The rest of it comes down to remembering basic rules of thumb and knowing how to manipulate people and situations to get favorable results.

Some of the best pilots I've ever known have had dubious understandings of the math behind Eve, and have quietly (and firmly) disagreed with me on several key topics. In a lot of ways I've come around to their way of thinking lately. The EFT numbers are great and should give you a very rough idea of how things are gonna work out in a slugfest... but thats pretty far from the way PVP actually happens in Eve.

Here's a video that really illustrates how the actual PVP is far more important than the EFT stats behind it (for once, not one of my videos): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqFGgw7OW1g

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#6 - 2012-01-27 18:19:44 UTC
One more thing - one of the best ways to improve your game is to watch yourself play Eve. Go buy fraps and fraps every fight you get in to (and get into them a lot). Watch the video and look for ways you could have done it better. You'll end up training the mistakes away.

Also, key binds - you should get them. I personally run with the keybinds noted here: http://vimeo.com/34603297 (feel free to explore my other videos and read the blog posts behind them - I'm pretty harsh on my flying and if you notice any mistakes feel free to comment)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#7 - 2012-01-27 18:20:37 UTC
One thing I do is practice on the test server and test fits out. The test server is a great place to learn about ALL the ships in eve and how they do in PVP. After that I live and die by two simple rules:

1: Know your strengths and play to them

2: Know your enemy's weakness and exploit them.
Liam Mirren
#8 - 2012-01-27 19:38:53 UTC
PVP is math and strategy combined with a solid understanding of game mechanics.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Skorpynekomimi
#9 - 2012-01-27 19:48:39 UTC
You don't need to crunch the numbers yourself. Spreadsheets can be for PVPers as well as industrialists. Just stick the formulas into excel, and set it up so you can just input variables and adjust things.
You can even have graphs!

Economic PVP
supr3m3justic3
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-01-27 19:57:06 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
PVP is math and strategy combined with a solid understanding of game mechanics.

^What this guy said...
Umega
Solis Mensa
#11 - 2012-01-27 20:10:44 UTC
As was stated.. math helps you understand potential scenarios and the limits of yours/others ships before you even undock. Being good at this, calculating the numbers properly, and understanding them are a very good tool to have.

But..

When adrenline kicks in.. all of that may just go out the window for some ppl, and for some ppl.. it may cause them problems and slow them down as they try to figure what is going on and what to do in their head.

Experince is going to lead to instinct. You don't need to know all the math, as you just already know what needs to take place when x-y-z happen. It is just.. there. The ability.

When you build and design a ship.. use the math. Know the parameters of your fit. Once you undock.. throw the numbers out the window before they swirl about in your cockpit, confusing you.

Experince ultimately is the best teacher.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-01-27 21:10:24 UTC
i prefe rthe term "EFT mathamagician" anyway

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King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#13 - 2012-01-27 22:18:10 UTC
As with basically all RPG's, it's a numbers game. You have your dps, your tank, your range and so on.The numbers tell the entire story, the problem is there are so many different things that very few (if anyone) can factor in them all on the fly. So most people use a mix of rules of thumbs along with simplified versions of the math. Typically I know the exact capabilities of my own ship and rough approximations for what I'm fighting. Of course, predicting the other guys capabilities rely on you knowing their fit. Most of the time, people are using cookie cutter setups but occasionally you run into something different.

So to answer your question, I don't think being a mathematician is required, but it certainly helps.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#14 - 2012-01-27 22:41:13 UTC
Agromos nulKaedi wrote:
What i've seen so far is that you do not need to be heavy into the basic algebra and trigonometry involved, however you need to not be math-phobic. There are numbers and formulas. They mean things. The things they tell are actually pretty intuitive concepts. But anyone who, as a lot of high school graduates say when presented with basic life skills problems, hurriedly says "I'm not a math person" is probably going to recoil from it all.

What the heck does that phrase even MEAN? Do we let three year olds say "I'm just not a potty-training person"? Seriously. If you're afraid of high school level maths, get over it or be consigned to spend the rest of your life working under someone who isn't.


I think people who say, "I'm not a [insert topic you don't like] person", it just means they don't have the inclination or motivation to learn more than what they already know. We all have our weaknesses. I recall that Blastos thread where Tippia was going on and on about stuff like this;

Chance to hit = 0.5^[(angular_v/tracking × sig_res/sig_rad)² + (max(0, range - optimal) / falloff)²]

Was practically mind numbing for me to understand. But as they say, it's all relative.

Good pvp = good habits. Once you build good habits, it becomes instinctive. It's partly why I always cringe when I see noobs who consistently take out BC hulls and higher thinking it will make them OP but they haven't built good instincts and habits yet. Heck some of them just blank out when they see a flashy red on overview .

@ Liang. Those are great vids.

The 3 Ps of PvP;


  1. Preparation - EFTing, weighing pros and cons of various scenarios
  2. Patience - finding targets and not rushing head in without thinking
  3. Prowess - your ability to command and dictate the actual battle

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#15 - 2012-01-27 23:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Deen Wispa wrote:
I recall that Blastos thread where Tippia was going on and on about stuff like this;

Chance to hit = 0.5^[(angular_v/tracking × sig_res/sig_rad)² + (max(0, range - optimal) / falloff)²]

Was practically mind numbing for me to understand. But as they say, it's all relative.
…which had very little to do with the performance of the ship, and more to do with illustrating the inherent differences between turret sizes. The maths help you understand why something is/isn't working — actually getting it to work is a rather different matter, and neither of the two is a requisite for the other.
Famine Aligher'ri
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#16 - 2012-01-28 00:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Famine Aligher'ri
Liang Nuren wrote:
The math all happens before you ever undock - and even that is mostly knowing what the common fits for the common ships are capable of. The rest of it comes down to remembering basic rules of thumb and knowing how to manipulate people and situations to get favorable results.

Some of the best pilots I've ever known have had dubious understandings of the math behind Eve, and have quietly (and firmly) disagreed with me on several key topics. In a lot of ways I've come around to their way of thinking lately. The EFT numbers are great and should give you a very rough idea of how things are gonna work out in a slugfest... but thats pretty far from the way PVP actually happens in Eve.

Here's a video that really illustrates how the actual PVP is far more important than the EFT stats behind it (for once, not one of my videos): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqFGgw7OW1g

-Liang


It should be common sense that math on paper or from a program do not output success without factoring in tactics. You take the video you quoted, the first fight is a kiting Frigate. Although the build might not be pleasing in EFT, the tactics applied in the video make it highly successful in that instance. In another instance, where a opposing ship warps on top of that specific build, he may not be youtubing that fight.

Builds have strengths and weaknesses. EFT forces most pilots to focus on finding all the strengths without directly seeing the weakness until they are in a live combat scenario and realizing what they created (or mimiced) is not a default win. To prove that point, you only need to look at any of the killboards where top builds are destroyed by unlikely not-so-popular builds because the pilot didn't understand how important tactics, knowing your builds and your opponents builds before engaging.

Famine Aligher'ri - Original Solo Pirate

Former The Pirate Syndicate Member

Former D.e.V.i.a.n.c.e member

Former Burn Eden member

Former BioMass Cartel member
Andrea Griffin
#17 - 2012-01-28 00:26:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The math all happens before you ever undock - and even that is mostly knowing what the common fits for the common ships are capable of. The rest of it comes down to remembering basic rules of thumb and knowing how to manipulate people and situations to get favorable results.
Or you can be like me and just read the posts of the math-a-holics, read what they have to say, and take the fruits of their labor without having to do all the work. : >

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#18 - 2012-01-28 00:30:18 UTC
Andrea Griffin wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The math all happens before you ever undock - and even that is mostly knowing what the common fits for the common ships are capable of. The rest of it comes down to remembering basic rules of thumb and knowing how to manipulate people and situations to get favorable results.
Or you can be like me and just read the posts of the math-a-holics, read what they have to say, and take the fruits of their labor without having to do all the work. : >


Its worth it if that's what makes people stop mathing and start undocking to blow **** up. :) Besides, what else am I gonna do while I compile at work?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-01-28 00:32:38 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Andrea Griffin wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The math all happens before you ever undock - and even that is mostly knowing what the common fits for the common ships are capable of. The rest of it comes down to remembering basic rules of thumb and knowing how to manipulate people and situations to get favorable results.
Or you can be like me and just read the posts of the math-a-holics, read what they have to say, and take the fruits of their labor without having to do all the work. : >


Its worth it if that's what makes people stop mathing and start undocking to blow **** up. :) Besides, what else am I gonna do while I compile at work?

-Liang


Sword fights on swivel chairs?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#20 - 2012-01-28 00:45:25 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
Sword fights on swivel chairs?


I suppose I could do something productive like contribute to GlusterFS or PostgreSQL or Python... but that would feel too much like work. Besides that would be entirely too likely to cause IP/legal issues that my employer wouldn't thank me for.

/shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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